Author Topic: The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003  (Read 8292 times)

Offline cpxxx

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2003, 11:17:20 AM »
Spoilsport Lazs, we could call it artistic licence but Ok I've edited it although I doubt if jigsaw is so stupid not to check. First thing I do with a firearm every time. Call it a cautionary tale:p

Offline miko2d

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2003, 11:33:15 AM »
lazs2 : even so... gun accidents are WAY down...  they drop further every year...

 The creative statistcs makes an impression that gun accidents are extremely frequent - by citing "children killed by guns" numbers. Most people attribute such death to accidents.

 In fact most of them are 17-19 year old black/hispanic gang members killed in turf warfare of inner cities. Also 17-19 year old criminals shot by police or armed citizens. Some "children".

 miko

Offline straffo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2003, 02:11:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I can go shooting any time I like and it costs me maybe 20 bucks... my firearms stash is modest... maybe a dozen nice guns but is not that expensive... I keep em at home and I reload ammo.... I take it that there are draconian laws governing your shooting and that it is very expensive and a huge pain in the butt to do...  I take it that you can't reload ammo at home and that a lot of firearms are flat out banned.    How do you justify this intrusion on your freedom?   Do you actually believe that you are better off with less freedom so far as guns are concerned?   do you really have so little faith in your neighbor?


I don't remember the exact cost but I'll be close to 200 buck :( a dozen gun it's about 12*500 $ I guess but look at http://www.fusil-calais.com you will find more accurate information than I'll be able to give you.

I never owned a gun myself ,not only because of cost but more because of the danger there is to have a gun at home (in my opinion of course).

You are wrong about reloading you can easily do it my uncle do it:).
My uncle also own a .45 ACP , a navy 18something,a 44 magnun and an abomination called "Marlin 444" (*), I have fun shooting with him from time to time (with the accuracy you can imagine :D).

Banned firearms like automatics are not a problem for me .
It's more a question of philosophie I shoot for accuracy and self-control checking not to make noise and smoke.

Our laws I've found a résumé here : http://www.fusil-calais.com/shop/legal/legal_en.asp

It's pretty restrictive compared to the US I guess but it's the law ...
And do I believe that in the environement I live I'm safer without gun, in the US I'll be likely a gun owner, it's just like eating snails I do , you don't :)

Hope this post make sense I've some friends at home it's pretty difficult to type with a almost drunk jerks screaming bawdy songs near you :D

(*) I've never ben sure of the most dangerous end of the Marlin :)
Each time I fired this think I ended humiliated :p

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2003, 02:39:52 PM »
thanks straffo... I'm not sure what 1 degree and 4 degree restrictions are but it appears that anything over a double barrel shotgun or any handgun at all is severely restricted... along with high powered rifles.   Are reloading componetnts or ammo restricted?   for instance, there is no restriction on gunpowder so long as it doesn't exceed 20 lbs at a time for storage and powder runs about $15 a pound here... primers are about $15 per thousand.... bullets can be bought or home cast... prices between 5 and 200 bucks a thousand depending on cast, jacketed and caliber.    

As for safety.... My gun safe weighs 800 lbs with a fire rating of 1200 degrees and minimal wall thickness of 1/4".... it  has 9 1 1/2" hardened steel bolts... people keep money in safes half as good... It's overkill but about average to above average so far as home gun safes go these days.   Heck... I end up keeping documents and such in it also.

The difference between good and bad gun laws is that with good (or better yet, nonexistant) gun laws.... everyone with even the most modest income can afford to learn the sport... they can afford to own and shoot firearms.    It shouldn't cost you more than a movie and dinner to go out shooting for a day.  

If you put gun ownership and shooting sports out of the financial reach of lower and middle class then  you have bad laws.    eventually... you lose your core of sportsmen... you end up with a nation that knows nothing of firearms except what they see on TV or movies...  

Here.... we watch movies and laugh at the silly gun stuff in em cause most of us have shot the guns that are in the movies... lots of us own those same guns at home.

lazs

Offline DmdNexus

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2003, 03:03:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
What about Canada? They got PLENTY of guns and very few gun related deaths.

Puerto Rico on the other hand, where gun regulations are extremely tight, worse than California (fear of revolution in the early century), many more people die from gunshots than Canada.  And its a smaller country.

I dont think its about gun regulations...


You're right it's not about gun regulations...
It has more to do with daily diet and complex sugars... and genetics.

Offline mrblack

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2003, 07:46:24 PM »
Check this out for silly.
in California you cant have a 50Cal rifle.
I am buying one as we speak and It is costing me $7.250.00
Now how many people are you gonna see speanding 7 grand on a rifle that weights 40lbs that you cant hide well at all.
and it cost an arm and a leg to shoot.
So why would they ban em in Kalifornia?

I just find that really odd
:rolleyes:

Offline NUKE

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2003, 07:54:19 PM »
In California it's also illegal to don full body armor, equip yourself and your buddy with machine guns, then proceed to fight a gun a battle with the cops in Los Angeles.

Offline Durr77

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2003, 12:20:07 AM »
I largely agree those that say that it is a difference of culture.  I can understand that many Europeans and others would feel that it is strange here, the same way that I cannot imagine living somewhere where guns were heavily restricted.

I grew up in Louisiana where most of the cities are very unsafe with very high murder rates.  I always carried a gun from the time I was old enough to do so, and still do when I return home.   I wouldnt feel safe in any of the major cities in Lousiana without one.  When I lived in Florida, the crime was somewhat less where I lived, but I still carried.  Now I live in Oklahoma in a small town that has virtually no violent crime.  I rarely carry my gun in my vehicle, or otherwise, mainly because I cannot take it legally onto the Air Force base where I am stationed.  I do not mind so much because it is very safe here.  If I drive up to Oklahoma City, or down to Dallas, I make sure I have it with me, and I always have it in my bedroom when I am at home to defend my residence against breakins.  

I can understand that if you lived somewhere where the crime was lower that you might feel safe without a gun. However, crime exists in European countries too, and in many parts of Europe is on the rise.  Personally, if I lived there, I would want to be armed.

I have a friend here that was stationed in England, and was unable to live on base.  He lived out in the town, in rather a bad neighborhood.  He said that they lived in fear at night, as there were frequent break-ins in the area.  He said that he really wished he could have had a gun to protect himself and his family.  His car was broken into four or five times while he was there, and although he heard the alarm go off, and rushed out, was unable to catch the culprits.  They didnt steal anything of value, but did well over a thousand dollars in damage to his car in the break-ins.   The last time it happened he heard the alarm go off, and rushed out to find that the thief had his arm caught in the door of the car.  He ran out and started beating the thief while his wife called the police.  The police arrived and instead of arresting the thief who was caught in the act, they arrested my friend instead for assault!!!  This simply blows my mind.  It angers me just to think of this situation.  This punk criminal gets a minor beating, which he richly deserves and more, and gets off scot-free, while a law-abiding person is arrested for trying to protect his private property.  

I am not saying that if my friend had a gun, that he would have been justified in running out and shooting this criminal.  In this case, the criminal was obviously no longer a threat to him, and couldnt escape, so he could have waited for the police, and shooting the thief would certainly not be justified.  Indeed the wise thing to do would have been to wait for the police as it was.  What if the breakin had been into his apartment though?  Self defense would clearly be justified in that case as you have nowhere to retreat once you are in your home.  

My understanding is that even if these criminals had broken into his house that he wouldnt have been able to attack them even then, even without a weapon.  What kind of nonsense is that?  Someone breaks into your house and you have to just ask them to leave and hope that they comply?  Is it true that in England that this is the case? Surely it cannot be.  Someone that is a resident and knows the law on this subject please fill me in.

If that is the passive culture that exists in Europe where you have to hide in fear, and allow criminals to run roughshod over you, then I want no part of it.  I hope that that mindset never succeeds here.  I prefer to be the master of my domain, and I take responsibility for defending it.  That responsiblity comes with this for gun safety is obvious, but I trust myself and have confidence in myself to be alert, ready, and capable of defending my dwelling, and my family from criminals.  I have drawn a gun on several occasions to protect myself, and fortunately I have never had to fire a shot, but I can tell you that the fact that I had a weapon with me was immensely comforting in each of those dangerous situations.  

I cannot understand the sympathy for criminals that seems to have taken hold in many liberal minds.  For example, how can you have sympathy for the guy that robs a store with a BB gun and gets killed?  Nobody made him do that.  He robbed a store of his own free will, trying to take through force what other people had earned through hard work.  He used a BB gun, hoping that people would think that it was a real gun, and would then acede to his demands.  This obviously backfired on him, and the penalty he paid was death.  It is a clear cut case of self defense on the part of the shooter though.  If a gun is pointed at me, then I have to believe that the person pointing it has the will and the capability of killing me.  I cannot pause to wonder if the gun is loaded, whether it is real, or whether the person really means the threat.  If I have the capablity to resist in the form of a weapon, then I will certainly do so.  The right of self-defense is a part of one of the most basic rights that we enjoy.  It is an integral part of the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Offline jigsaw

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2003, 01:39:30 AM »
cpxxx, that situation couldn't happen. a) I have a glock, so there's no "safety". b) I'm not married. ;)

Quoted from Nuke...
Quote
In California it's also illegal to don full body armor, equip yourself and your buddy with machine guns, then proceed to fight a gun a battle with the cops in Los Angeles.


Illegal? I thought that was the normal after school activity these days?

Offline straffo

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2003, 02:01:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thanks straffo... I'm not sure what 1 degree and 4 degree restrictions are but it appears that anything over a double barrel shotgun or any handgun at all is severely restricted... along with high powered rifles.   Are reloading componetnts or ammo restricted?   for instance, there is no restriction on gunpowder so long as it doesn't exceed 20 lbs at a time for storage and powder runs about $15 a pound here... primers are about $15 per thousand.... bullets can be bought or home cast... prices between 5 and 200 bucks a thousand depending on cast, jacketed and caliber.    


I don't know the rules for re-arming but i think it's not very different except for the cost.

Quote

As for safety.... My gun safe weighs 800 lbs with a fire rating of 1200 degrees and minimal wall thickness of 1/4".... it  has 9 1 1/2" hardened steel bolts... people keep money in safes half as good... It's overkill but about average to above average so far as home gun safes go these days.   Heck... I end up keeping documents and such in it also.
 


Not all people are smart enought to have a safe storage for their gun and ammo, and if you want to be smart it's costly.
And you're smart concerning weapon I guess it come from your education ,here even if people are supposed to know and apply the regulation their gun are not safe !
I remember a member of the club being fired by the club president because he loved pointing is gun at other people ...even if it's empty it's pretty a braindead behaviour ...

 
Quote

The difference between good and bad gun laws is that with good (or better yet, nonexistant) gun laws.... everyone with even the most modest income can afford to learn the sport... they can afford to own and shoot firearms.    It shouldn't cost you more than a movie and dinner to go out shooting for a day.  

Unfortunatly it's true for any caliber biger than .22 but and the end I of my shooting "career" I switched to archery because it was more to my taste

Quote

If you put gun ownership and shooting sports out of the financial reach of lower and middle class then  you have bad laws.    eventually... you lose your core of sportsmen... you end up with a nation that knows nothing of firearms except what they see on TV or movies...  

Here.... we watch movies and laugh at the silly gun stuff in em cause most of us have shot the guns that are in the movies... lots of us own those same guns at home.

lazs


I love the noise of the guns in films :)
Each time an actor fire a gun it make the noise of a 5 inch gun battery :D

Btw if you love shoting for accuracy it's not extremly expensive as you can use a 4,5mm air powered gun but if you want to do the same with a 9mm you have to be rich or in Police/Military
« Last Edit: November 06, 2003, 02:05:18 AM by straffo »

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2003, 08:16:59 AM »
thanks straffo.. that is my point.   gun control laws do, and allways have, taken the right of gun ownership away from the lower classes and given it to the upper classes and their armies.  

In the U.S. we don't believe that this is a good thing.   I don't believe this is a good thing.  Most Americans respect guns rather than fear them.... that is the real "cultural" thing... the cultural thing is generaly ignorance brought on by generations of.... well... lack of knowledge... lack of experiance.  

As for Kalifornia... it is run by women and womenly men.... women with the right to vote and affirmative action run amuck...   This is what becomes of having women voting much less being given positions of responsibility....   In Ca...  you can't buy python skin boots...  I am serious... they won't ship to Ca.. only state in the union..  Some woman in government must have a pet python or.... well it just sounds endangered or something...   Yu can't buy night vision equipment either for... for gawd knows what reason... no one can tell me..  they passed that one when no one was looking just because they thought it was a good idea I guess..

would like to see finestein and boxer stumble around in the dark into a nest of pythons...   That would help the bussiness climate and the people in California.

lazs

Offline Scootter

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2003, 08:49:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
CyranoAH: I don't have any kind of problem with the gun legislation here.

 Which means you vote for it. In a demcoraticountry a vote is a tool that you have to affect other people's lives through the coercive power of the state - backed by armed violence.

 If you use your power to deny the other people the right of choice regarding protecting themselves, you are an oppressor, pure and simple. It does not matter that you are willing to be a serf at the same time - some people may choose not to live according to your choices.

 Damn right we have a problem with you infringing on the liberties of your countrymen. Just like you would hopefully have a problem if we kept slavery in US - even if that would have been our legislation.

 Nobody makes anyone have a gun here (well, there are a couple of municipalities where such laws are on the books but they are not enforced). It's the matter of denying a law-abiding citizen rights by governmental decree that is the problem.

 miko



Keep preaching I agree with you 100 percent on this, government is to big and is feeding on itself. The freedoms we have are slipping away a little at a time, due in part to people voting without considering the consequences.

"A man who gives up freedom for security has and deserves neither"

Offline lazs2

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2003, 02:28:22 PM »
yep... agreed... people are voting like hysterical women... they are voting to take away their fellow mans rights.   This is petty tyranny on their part.   short sighted and womanly.   I hope they are with fienstein and boxer when they stumble into the python pit in the dark.    
lazs

Offline midnight Target

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2003, 02:39:18 PM »
Quote
would like to see finestein and boxer stumble around in the dark into a nest of pythons... That would help the bussiness climate and the people in California.


Now that was a funny post.

Offline jigsaw

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The Armed Citizen - Oct 2003
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2003, 04:04:36 PM »
Quote
they are voting to take away their fellow mans rights


This reminds me of a topic that came up in my aviation law class.
When Jet Blue turned over passengers information to an outside party, some people were siding with them since they were trying to justify it as "it's for your own good."

My point being that so many bad things happen when hidden behind the "for your own good" smokescreen, it's too easy to end up losing basic freedoms.