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Author Topic: restored Messerschmitt Bf 109 E4 WN 3579  (Read 20177 times)

Offline Charge

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« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2003, 08:29:57 AM »
I'm not sure if Spitfire's nose configuration was a very good one in terms of aerodynamics. The 109E had its propeller quite low compared to Spit and I think the 109F had it even lower. At least the center of the torque is closer to the aircrafts COG which sounds as a good thing. Some sources say the Spit had a lower drag coeff than 109 but some say they were nearly the same?

Have you seen the test where DB was installed on Spitfire? That would reveal at least the effect of the propellor positioned lower when compared to original position seen on Spit.

-C+
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 02:25:12 PM by Charge »
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Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2003, 04:39:14 AM »
That's true, the Germans fitted a DB to a Spit, I have pictures of that somewhere.

Can't recall what kind of DB and what mark of Spit it was though, and the remarks on relative performance were not detailed. Also not a word on flying characteristics.

Maybe some loony, I mean someone with a deep interest in historical aviation and too much money will try a conversion again? There are still Buchons with Merlins flying you know... maybe someone has a leftover Spit and a DB somewhere...

;)
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #137 on: December 11, 2003, 07:59:20 AM »
Butch2k posted the climb and speed charts for the Spit V with DB 605A on his board.

It had a max speed of 608 km/h (if I'm reading the chart right. I'm used to altitude on the vertical axis, speed/climb on the horizontal) .

It was about 25 km/h faster than the Merlin 45 engined Spit V up to 4km, the Merlin engined Spit was then 10 - 15km/h faster up to 6.5km, and the DB engined Spit was faster above that.

Climb rate at 0m was about 21 m/s.

The Spitfire had all aramament removed, and weighed 2,730KG for the tests.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #138 on: December 12, 2003, 06:51:10 AM »
DB605!!!! That is a lot of power for a Spit V! Must be like 100 hp more.
So the nose effext seems to be minimal, 25 kph it is but with a weighted down aircraft with more power..hmmm
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #139 on: December 12, 2003, 07:24:15 AM »
Quote
So the nose effext seems to be minimal, 25 kph it is but with a weighted down aircraft with more power..hmmm


Because of all the equipment they removed (notably the armament), the Spit V with DB605 was actually about 500lbs lighter than a standard Spit V.
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #140 on: December 12, 2003, 11:06:41 AM »
No it doesn't seem like they were too impressed with the Spit V.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2003, 06:06:39 PM »
?.???
This is all a bit confusing.
Firstly: GScholz; what do you mean?
Secondly, this particular effect of installing a DB605 in a Spit5 is a tad confusing.
The power increase is roughly that of jumping from Spit5 to Spit9, and also there should be a positive effect from a better "center",  while DECREASING weight. Still, the performance increase is from marginal to negative. Something is wrong here....:confused:
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2003, 06:15:52 PM »
My point: The Germans put a more powerful engine in the Spit V and reduced the weight. Yet their test results are just marginally better than British test results. Either the Germans were underestimating their results for propaganda reasons or the British were overestimation their test results for the same reason. I tend to lean toward the latter considering that the Spit V served at a low point in the war for the RAF and were being slaughtered by LW 190s and 109s (in Africa and over the Channel/France).
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2003, 06:29:22 PM »
I think I can tell by GScholz's avatar that he has absolutely no bias regarding this topic whatsoever. :D
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2003, 06:36:20 PM »
The Flip Side of the coin:
Going from Spit V to Spit IX was made out of similar power increase but weight also increased.
So, either that DB605+centering was not delivering that power properly (unexpected problems either with c of g, cooling, or drag), or it was the propoganda machine saying: "The Spit airframe is obsolete"
Anyway, by stuffing a more powerful Merlin into that airframe, the Performance surely ran up!
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2003, 06:41:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
I think I can tell by GScholz's avatar that he has absolutely no bias regarding this topic whatsoever. :D


:D
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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2003, 06:42:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
The Flip Side of the coin:
Going from Spit V to Spit IX was made out of similar power increase but weight also increased.
So, either that DB605+centering was not delivering that power properly (unexpected problems either with c of g, cooling, or drag), or it was the propoganda machine saying: "The Spit airframe is obsolete"
Anyway, by stuffing a more powerful Merlin into that airframe, the Performance surely ran up!


Spit IX had a new airframe.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2003, 07:38:57 PM »
Spit 9 had a beefed up (strenght issue) Spit V airframe.
That's why it got into production before earlier mark variants, - the production line did not have to change that much.
Another benefit was that the difference was not easy to see. The Germans did not know what they were up against before it was too late.
Beefed up by about 200 hp, but also somewhat heavier, the performance was nice.
So why could they not copy that with a DB 605 ?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #148 on: December 15, 2003, 05:55:08 AM »
Oh, here comes the difference between Spit V and Spit IX with a tad more accuracy.
Merlin 45 goes to Merlin 61. Increase in HP is from 1470 to 1565, - i.e. 95 hp, but the powercurve of the Merlin 61 is much better at alt.
Increase in weight is 550 lbs empty.
Increase in performance is significant, climb 6:24 to 20K instead of 7:30., max speed 408 mph instead of 374, - that makes a whooping 34 mph (54 km/h) increase in speed.
By comparison, the DB605 should do about the same power as the Merlin 61 (I seem to recall some LW fans stating it was better!), so a plane 1000 lbs lighter with a DB605 really should do better!
BTW, Yugo Hurricanes were fitted with the DB601, and that yealded a decent increase in speed and climb. The DB601 giving less power than the original Merlin! Must have been a better airscrew then?!?!?!?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2003, 06:08:25 AM »
And On we go (more data). From the comparison test:

"After a couple of weeks, and with a new yellow-painted nose, the Spitfire returne to Echterdingen. Ellenreider was the first to try the aircraft. He was stunned that the aircraft had much better visibility and handling on the ground than the Bf.109. It took off before he realised it and had an impressive climb rate, around 70 ft. (21 m.) per second. Much of the Spitfire's better handling could be attributed to its lower wing loading. "

"The Messerschmitt was faster at low altitude, but at 11,000 ft. (3350 m) the speeds evened out. The DB 605A engine gave better performance, according to the test group, than the Merlin, which was rated 150 hp below the German engine"

Looks like the Germans were actually rather impressed with the little Spitty. Well No wonder with that power to weight ratio.
Now the only thing that bothers me really, is why this plane should not outperform the Spit IX.......
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)
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