Author Topic: Most Surprising Fighter Fact?  (Read 12604 times)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2003, 07:02:28 PM »
Hehe, an amazing fact.
The weight difference between the first and last production line Spitfire was as much as 35 airline passangers including baggage!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline bozon

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« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2003, 07:47:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, an amazing fact.
The weight difference between the first and last production line Spitfire was as much as 35 airline passangers including baggage!

and where do they sit exacly?
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline moot

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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2003, 12:03:34 AM »
It was the Champlain museum that I was at.
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Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2003, 03:13:29 AM »
Nice find F4UDOA! If you have more of these comparisons I would be extremely happy to read them.

Indeed, the P-39 doesn't seem so bad at all in this test and  disproves anecdotal evidence that Zero pilots feared the F4F the most of all American early war fighters. (Of course the F4F tested here is the heavier F4F-4, an F4F-3 might be better)

I think it is also a matter of tactics, unwary P-39 pilots may have engaged the Zero without realising its maneuverability and being slaughtered as a result.

Still I think the message from the report is clear, the Zero is an extremely dangerous opponent and should not be underestimated! If you let your speed drop you are most likely dead against one.

Offline loser

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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2003, 10:47:55 AM »
how small the spitfire is, and how frikken huge the TBM is.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2003, 06:50:14 PM »
Hi Hogenbor,

>Indeed, the P-39 doesn't seem so bad at all in this test and disproves anecdotal evidence that Zero pilots feared the F4F the most of all American early war fighters.

Actually, the F4F had the advantage of having a two-speed supercharger, which made it competitive at high altitude where the USAAF fighters lost out. I believe it's quite plausible that the A6M pilots would fear the F4F more than the P-39 or P-40.

>I think it is also a matter of tactics, unwary P-39 pilots may have engaged the Zero without realising its maneuverability and being slaughtered as a result.

Well, I've only once heard MF Kirby praise anything about the P-400 he flew, and that was that the big doors made it easy to bail out of it. (As far as I know, he didn't actually have to.)

From his descriptions, normal tactics for his unit seem to have been to fly one attack on the Zeros, then run home as fast as possible no matter what.

After the conversion to the P-38, his unit became a lot more aggressive, employing high speed climbs and wingman tactics including "drags" to successfully deal with the Japanese fighters.

The P-40, which MF Kirby and Clay Tice (who flew P-40 in New Guinea) agreed to be slightly superior to the P-39, was considered obsolete and inferior to the Japanese fighters as well. Clay Tice' unit was constantly refitted with overhauled P-40s from other units, much to their frustration as they hoped to get rid of the type completely and transfer to a better aircraft like the P-38.

Apparently, the memory of the early losses against the Zeros was still fresh, so noone ever tried to turn with them. However, Kirby and Clay both pointed out that pre-war USAAF doctrine was Lufberry-style turnfighting, assuming that with similar aircraft, the better pilot would win. Cooperation was limited to what today is called "welded wing" tactics - the wing man just stuck with his leader without contributing much to the fight.

With regard to the intelligence report on the A6M, it apparently didn't make it to New Guinea, leaving the pilots there without the (highly useful) information on the Zero's weaknesses.

It's my impression that Chennault was far ahead of the USAAF with regard to tactics as well with regard to intelligence, so the Flying Tigers were much better prepared for the fight against the Japanese than the regular Air Force was.

On the other hand, Clay Tice' comments on the RAAF experience in the defense of Australia seem to suggest that the P-40 fared better than the Spitfire (with tropical filters, to be fair), mainly because the RAAF tried to apply the lessons learned in the Battle of Britain without recognizing that the situation in Australia was a bit different.

With regard to the technical capabilities, I haven't seen a speed over altitude graph for the P-39 yet, but the low-altitude advantage it enjoyed didn't help it much over New Guinea. Under tropical conditions, the "low altitude" band might actually be smaller than indicated by a "standard day" graph anyway. And as the fight often took place over mountainous terrain, going low could actually be impossible.

The point about extremely high boost pressures on the P-39 seems to be reinforced by Kirby's and Clay's recollections - apparently, it was standard practice to disregard engine limitations and run at full (probably military) power from take-off to peel-off into the landing pattern, except for going even beyond that power setting in actual air combat.

(These high power settings were used as result of the pressure the - perceivedly - superior Zero was exerting on the USAAF fighters.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline afool

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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2003, 08:53:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing


Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a late model P-39 in Aces High?



It would be more than a hoot. Growing up in the shadow of the Bell factory (my father worked there along with two of my uncles) it would be great.

afool
« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 09:53:15 PM by afool »

Offline Halo

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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2003, 09:40:59 PM »
Speaking of P-39s (many threads eventually include the Airacobra no matter where they started), I still remember my half-brother buzzing my house in Evansville, Indiana, in a P-39 before he went off to Europe to eventually get killed in a P-51.  

First time I saw my Mother cry was when she was walking up from the mailbox after some sort of War Department notification.  

If you want to see and fly a nice-looking cyber P-39, try Fighter Aces.  Allows external views too, though still not as joystick hat intuitive as MS Flight Simulator 2004.  

Whatever its eventual contributions and matchups, the P-39 still has to be one of the best-looking aircraft ever flown.  So I guess its main connection to this thread is surprise that it wasn't given a supercharger and, like the Brewster Buffalo in Finland, surprise that it was much more valued by another user (USSR) than it was by its nation of origin.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 09:50:20 PM by Halo »
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Offline Sox62

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« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2003, 08:46:51 PM »
I recently read Eric Bergerud's book,Fire in the Sky:The Airwar in the South Pacific.


Many of the early fighters more then held their own(P-40,F4F)against the zero according to many of the pilots who flew them.(after they started using smarter tactics,keeping speed up,not turning with them,etc).

I didn't read a single positive comment about the P-39 by the pilots that flew them in the pac theatre in the book.One even commented about trying to intercept inbound bombers with plenty of advance warning,and not even coming close due to the horrible climb rate.The also stated the ONLY defense against a zero was dive away.They in no way considered it maneuverable or agile.

It's a pretty good book,with many anecdotes from pilots who weren't the top aces.

Offline Halo

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« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2003, 11:39:36 PM »
Nanette (Her Pilot's Love Story) by Edwards Park is a rather strange love-hate relationship with a P-39 in the Pacific.  

Some excerpts:  "Of all the fighters, two could really excite a flyer.  One was the P-51, Mustang, lovely to look at, honest, efficient, hard-working, and dependable.  In those days she was thought of as a wife, and I know men who married her, back then, and are still in love with her.  The other was the P-39, Airacobra.  It was slim, with a gently curved tail section, and smoothly faired in air intake, and a perfectly rounded nose with its ugly, protruding cannon.  But the Airacobra was lazy and slovenly and given to fits of vicious temper.  It was a sexy machine, and rotten.  Nanette was like that, and I was a little queer for her."

Most strange is the way Nanette seems to avoid combat and thus keep her pilot alive.  Park comes to love his P-39 the way some people fall in love with their favorite machines.  Definitely one of the most unusual WWII air combat books.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2003, 01:15:06 PM »
Wasn't the P38 supposed to be able to climb nicely atvery high speed, - something in the direction of 1500 fpm at  300 mph.
Remember reading about 38's that left Zeke's in the dust like this, then being able to hammerhead them as the turned away.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2003, 02:27:55 PM »
Halo, big to your half-brother.
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Offline Halo

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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2003, 07:55:35 PM »
Thanks, Gunther.  I only remember seeing my half-brother that one time inasmuch as Mom remarried (hence, me) and moved from Ohio to Indiana.  When he buzzed the house, I grabbed Mom's legs and asked, "Is he gonna shoot?"  I mean, he practically clipped the treetops ... he was LOW.  

I understand that was a morale builder, to let the pilots take their planes to their home towns before they went overseas.  That P-39 was a beauty, but it certainly gets mixed reviews in most places.  

Everyone was involved in the war effort.  I remember that much even though I was only 6 when WWII ended.  Every family had fighters and workers somewhere.

All the wars since then have been bad too, but WWII was still the worst.  I'm glad to see WWII vets finally getting more of the recognition they deserve since soon there won't be anymore of them living.

Didn't mean to distract the thread, but everytime the P-39 comes up, it's hard not to.  I can tell from the way others focus on certain planes that they too have special memories of family or friend involvement.  

Who knows -- in another 100 years, Aces High may have no more appeal than WWI simulators do now.  But maybe not -- probably always be a market for the last of the aircraft gun fighters.
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Offline udet

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Re: Most Surprising Fighter Fact?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2003, 09:23:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
The largest single-engine fighter of WWII, the P-47, does not have the widest wingspan.  Didn't notice that until looking at F6F Hellcat beside the new 1/72 Matchbox Collectible P-47.  

The Hellcat spans 42 feet, 10 inches; the Thunderbolt spans 40 feet, 9 1/4 inches.   That really surprises me, especially with the F6F being a carrier fighter.  

Of course the wingspan champ of all nations probably is the FW Ta 152H-1 at 47 feet, 6 3/4 inches.

What fact about WWII fighter planes surprises you the most?


largest aircraft in the category you mentioned is the Blackburn Firebrand

Offline Halo

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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2003, 06:11:57 PM »
Firebrand is interesting but apparently came along mostly after WWII as a torpedo bomber.  Listed for 1946 as torpedo-strike fighter with wingspan of 51 feet, 3 inches.  

Surprising too is it took so long to develop, starting in 1939 but hampered by difficulties including suitable engine (according to Chartwell's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2003, 09:23:44 PM by Halo »
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous