Best Fighter Aircraft of the 60's and early 70's debate !!

[Montezuma]

F-106 with a Genie missile blows away everything.

[_Schadenfreude_]

Mirage IIIJ (IAF) probably had more kills and had more effect on the battledfield than any other a/c during that period.

[CyranoAH]

Mi vote goes to the Mirage IIIc

[MC_Honky]

Thank GOD the Canadians have not come on this board with their "THE AVRO-ARROW WAS THE BEST PLANE EVER!"

[Vermillion]

Ok, time to throw some numbers into the fray.....  They might dispel some of the "F-4 invincibility Myth".

Admittedly, I don't know as much as I would like about aircraft like the Lightning or the Mirage, so someone feel free to add the numbers from those aircraft.

This data comes from "Clashes, Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972".  Its only accurate for a general comparison, but should be helpful

Gross Weight(lbs) Max Vs (SL, knots) Thrust/Weight Wing Loading (lbs/sq ft)

F-105D 52,000 730 0.745        92
F-4   53,000 710 0.79 81
F-8 30,000 650 0.69 69
MiG-21 16,300 595 0.88 58
MiG-19 16,500 620 0.84 51
MiG-17 12,000 575 0.64 44

Now, don't get me wrong.  The F-4 was an incredible aircraft, and extremely versatile, especially as a fighter-bomber.  But as a pure fighter it has problems.  Its two man crew, radar and BVR capability, and high speed/power makes it an incredible interceptor.  These systems would mature as the 70's went on to make it the best fighter in the world at the time.  But without pulse doppler look down radar, systems failures (common to this period), or ROE that precludes BVR shots, it would have a very difficult time with some of the other pure fighters listed here.  And lets not forget that other planes here also have a limited BVR radar guided capability.

Also lets consider size of the aircraft (ability to spot it), view out of the cockpit (see the enemy), and such things as smoking engines.  So do you still think the F-4 is the best in terms of fighter capability only?

*stokes the fires of discussion*

[straffo]

use SI damit !

Mirage IIIc
Gross Weight(kg)
7000
Max Vs (SL, km/h)
1,390
Thrust/Weight
0.88
Wing Loading (Kg/m²)
200

[Vermillion]

Gscholz, your probably right, and the author switched them.  But thats straight from the book.

Straffo, the Mirage data looks on the high side.  But thats just a quick glance and I haven't done any checking in my data.  You sure thats right?

[Nomak]

He did say 60s and early 70s right?

Wouldnt you have to throw the F-14 "Tomcat" (1973) in there then?

Just curious.

[ravells]

What criteria are you using to determine the 'best' fighter?

Ravs

[MC_Honky]

MC_HONKY WILL SPEAK NOW:

US airplanes have an abundance of "intangibles"- things that cannot be measured so easy and never show up in a video game,  Things like:

1)   Build Quality (hell I’ve read reports that La-7’s fell apart in midair frequently).
2)   Reliability
3)   Ergonomics (BIG BIG factor)
4)   Field support

If you could get a Mig19 working properly- a decent pilot that knew how to takeoff and land- decent fuel- and find a Con even though you had only a 20 min. endurance- then you had a good chance (ask the Vietcong).

[Westy]

F-104 Starfighter  (damn. just saw Ontos beat me. still...)




I win!!

[Furious]

An Air Force, Navy and Marine airframe.  That's a nice quality.

[Vermillion]

Someday, I'm going to have to get the flight manual data on the F-104 to see how it really stacks up.  My impression of it was that it would be fast in a straight line, for about 3 mins until the fuel ran out, and thats it  But that is admittedly an uneducated opinon.

As to what aircraft I was intending we consider.  Basically the aircraft that could have or did see combat in Vietnam (72-73), the later Arab-Israeli war, and the India-Pakistani conflict of the same general period.  I personally consider the MiG-23, the F-111 (even though it did see limited use in Vietnam), the F-14, the F-15 to be "next generation" aircraft.  But feel free to use your own definitions.  

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
The Navy F-4 version with guns.  Navy missiles PWN3D AF missiles.

Navy Phantoms never had a internal gun/cannon.

The Navy only used 4 Phantom variants from Carriers.

B/J/N/S

The B was the first Phantom to see Navy Service, followed by the J in the late sixties. The S was the same as the J, with updated electronics, Just as the N was the same as the B, with updated electronics.

The Air Force Echo variant was the first Phantom to have a Internal Gun. And the Navy never used them. Although all Variants of the Phantom, could carry a Vulcan 20mm Gun Pod. The navy saw it more as a hinderance than an effective weapon. As a matter of fact, ive only seen one Photo of a Navy Phantom ever carrying them.

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by Vermillion
the F-14, the F-15 to be "next generation" aircraft.  But feel free to use your own definitions.  

The first F-14 Squadrons (VF-1 and VF-2) saw there first operational cruise in 1973-75? West Pac (Gulf of Tonkin).