Was this God's plan for Carlie?

[Suave]

Hi banana.

If you believe in heaven, then dying is the best thing that can happen to a person. Yet those who believe in heaven regard murder as the worst thing that one can do to another. Curiously those that profess to believe in heaven fear death as much as the rest of us, and feel as much pain when mourning their loved ones as the rest of us do. Of course I'm not telling you anything that you haven't allready realized yourself.

A philosopher once surmised, I think Plato, that either way you slice it, death is not so bad. He said that beyond death is either another life, or eternal sleep in oblivion, either way it's not a bad thing. And that's pretty much how I feel about it.

As for whether or not our lives and deaths are predetermined and planned by a divine magic. Well I think you allready know the answer to that deep down.

Now what I've said here may garner some negative feed back from some. But since it's you, and I'm pretty sure you're on the level. I figured I'd shoot ya straight.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Suave
If you believe in heaven, then dying is the best thing that can happen to a person.  

Suave - not mocking your beliefs or anything like that, but thanks for that! Funniest thing I have read this year!

[AVRO1]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You can not get to Atheism or faith in God logically.

That is completly false.
I became an atheist because I realised that all those things in the Bible could be explained some other way through logic.

If the Big Bang created life then no God is needed.

Jesus might not have died on the cross since it took a long time.
Someone could have nursed him back to health.
When he came back he would still have holes in is hands.

An Atheist believes in the non existance of God.

That is not true.
I simply do not believe in the existence of unproven gods.
Which happens to include all of them.

I am not a sheep you can lead with a carrot.

[Holden McGroin]

I simply do not believe in the existence of unproven gods.

athe·ism
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 the doctrine that there is no deity


ag·nos·tic
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable,
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

According to these definitions and your explanation you are agnostic, not atheist.

[AVRO1]

Holden McGroin,

I think I misunderstood your first post.
Non existence of a god is weird concept to me, sorry.
Your post seem to imply that I "believed" in the non existence of god like it was a religious thing.

But that belief is not religious, it is simply logic.
Since their is no proof that god does exist, he must not.
Then I guess I believe in the non existence of god.

I guess that makes me

[Holden McGroin]

Because no evidence exists to prove something, all it logically proves is that there is no evidence.  The leap to the conclusion that something does not exist is illogical and therefore is a faith.

There is no evidence of extra-terrestrial life, and yet I have confidence that in the vastness of the universe life exists elsewhere.  Because I have no evidence supporting my contention does not prove that ET life does not exist.

Atheism does have a modicum of faith associated with it; the faith (not logic) that a deity does not exist.

[-dead-]

Originally posted by beet1e
banana,

Your initial post indicates that you are confused by tragic events. Some people here have attempted lengthy explanations.

I can be quite brief in my own explanation. Once you accept that there is no God, everything else makes sense.

I'd qualify it some: Once you accept there is no god and that humans are all just apes, the world is much less confusing place and the news makes a lot more sense.

[Kieran]

Do you believe that it was God's plan to have Carlie die at age eleven at the hands of a brutal killer?

No. God's plan is for each and every one of us to spend our lives growing to know and love Him. Unfortunately we have free choice, and many choose to turn away. Those that turn away choose to do evil, it isn't God sending them out to be or do evil.

God doesn't promise us any set number of days on earth. Many of us face debilitating disease, horrible accidents, war, any number of tragic events. What God does promise is eternal life, and the believer understands that whatever duress we face here on earth, it's temporary. It's a matter of seeing the big picture.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by banana
Ok, straight up. I'm an agnostic. My whole life, I've been trying to find some way to believe in God. But every time I read about another little girl who is kidnapped and killed like Carlie, I become even more convinced that God is a figment of our imagination. What kind of merciful God would have this as his plan for a little girl?

I'm listening, Christians. Was this God's plan for Carlie?

If you're insinuating that God is an accomplice to the crime unless he doesn't exist, I'd have to say I think that's certainly stretching it for an excuse not to believe in a higher power.

If you're saying that the existance of evil in the world is unimpeachable evidence that God (at least a God who is loving and compassionate ... incapable of evil acts) cannot exist, I think that, too, is stretching to rationalize.

A world without evil is a world where choosing right over wrong has no meaning. And yes ... evil things can and will happen to innocent victims. If it didn't then the world would automatically be "just." Does this mean God wanted Carlie to suffer what happened to her? Not in the least. Does it mean he wanted the person or persons responsible to do what they did? That neither.

If one believes in a God that's omniscient and all powerful .. capable of preventing everything bad that happens to us ... does that make it "good" or "right" for him to do that? Even for the sake of the Carlies of the world ... not to mention the millions starving or suffering the horrors of war or being ravaged by diseases, should God snap his fingers and stop it all thereby once and for all proving without a doubt not only his existance but his goodness through his ability to protect all of his children from harming one another (or even suffering from nature)?

What's the point in even having a mortal existance, in that case (from an eternal/spiritual pov)? That being said, I don't see our ignorance of why bad things happen to innocent victims as cause for disbelief in a God that is inherently good, compassionate and loving.

Granted, I've been fortunate enough not to suffer what Carlie's parents are going though. I hope and pray I never have to. Maybe having it happen to me would make me shake my fist at God and cry out ... maybe it would cause me to doubt. Maybe it would lead to resentment. Maybe I'd just end up believing there is no God because if he loved me he wouldn't have let this happen to me (or those close to me). And again maybe that's why it happens. Maybe it's not God's fault at all. Maybe we have to reach back. Maybe he's always there to help but we aren't listening. We're too caught up in the world. Maybe he's crying too.

But so far I've been blessed not to have such a horrible thing happen to me or anyone close to me .... thank God.

[vorticon]

Originally posted by banana
Ok, straight up. I'm an agnostic. My whole life, I've been trying to find some way to believe in God. But every time I read about another little girl who is kidnapped and killed like Carlie, I become even more convinced that God is a figment of our imagination. What kind of merciful God would have this as his plan for a little girl?

I'm listening, Christians. Was this God's plan for Carlie?

no it wasnt gods plan for carlie...god layed out the "groundwork" for her life and went on to other peoples...then evil came along and destroyed everything that god and carlie built...

gods plan often gets interuppted by satans

[SOB]

Originally posted by Kieran
No. God's plan is for each and every one of us to spend our lives growing to know and love Him. Unfortunately we have free choice, and many choose to turn away. Those that turn away choose to do evil, it isn't God sending them out to be or do evil.

Maybe I read this wrong...turning away from god by not knowing and loving him equates to choosing to do evil?  Or by choosing to do evil, you're turning your back on God?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by SOB
Maybe I read this wrong...turning away from god by not knowing and loving him equates to choosing to do evil?  Or by choosing to do evil, you're turning your back on God?

*Ding*

"What is 'yes', Alex?"

[Kieran]

I knew that wasn't clear when I said it... sorry.

When we choose to turn away from God, we open ourselves up to evil. Our nature is to be evil. We can't fight what we are alone, we need God's help to do that.

That isn't to say choosing God prevents sin- it doesn't- but it does lessen the likelihood to revert to our basest instincts and nature. The idea is someone who is  truly walking closely with God would not commit such an act.

[lord dolf vader]

fact remains your got is either not all powerfull or chose to allowed that little girl to be raped to death. her personal god who is always with her allowed her death in this maner.


blaming it on satan, who was created by god anyway makes no sense at all. even if you are a true believer this must occur to you for cryin out loud.

[Arlo]

If you wanna use this tragedy to support your lack of belief in God, then hey ... who am I to stop ya? Seems you have unrealistic expectations if your criteria for proof that God exists is Heaven on Earth, though. That is, if it really was criteria for such. In this case it appears the Christians are actually a bit more realistic.

People suffer and die, innocent and guilty alike. Christians take solace that there is a better afterlife and that all things happen for a reason (even if that reason is not readily apparent). One may argue that this is unrealistic (as often is the case) but how is the preference to adhere to the belief that nothing has purpose and all that awaits us at death is decomposition a healthy state of mind? Of course, I've heard the same argument in reverse but it still doesn't make sense to me.

Well ... such is life.