Author Topic: "Only in Finland".... (Read 7719 times)

cpxxx · « **Reply #90 on:** February 10, 2004, 11:17:31 PM »

Reading this sometimes ill tempered debate. I have a few thoughts.

Making a speeding fine fit your income is a good idea. It's not a deterrent if the fine is less than the cost of the cigars you smoke while you drive your Maybach or Ferrari. A speeding fine that hurts me wouldn't even register for someone on 100k a year.

Having said that we have a system here like that in Britain where each speeding conviction attracts points on your licence. Get enough points and you get to ride the bus. Then your insurance goes up because the insurers think you are a risk. Works very well. Since the system was brought in last year, road deaths dropped significantly. The problem is that fines didn't really work.

Some Americans get all 'het up' about 'socialism' in European countries. Or more to the point supposed high taxes caused by 'socialism'. All these countries seem to get on quite well. Most are rich comfortable, relatively crime free with little poverty and full of smug people quick to tell you how great their country is. They pay relatively high taxes but it's all ploughed back into good services and medical cover.

If you pay medical insurance every month that is in fact a tax of sorts.

There is also the attitude among some that being poor is somehow a lifestyle choice. For some maybe but very few. Having been there at one stage I can tell you it's not and if it wasn't for the safety net of social welfare. I would have starved. Because there were no jobs at the time. period!

As it happens I live in a low direct tax country. Third lowest in the world I believe. There's a minimum wage that is so low you can't live on it. We along with the British, work the longest hours in Europe. Oddly enough the rich are getting richer and the roads are clogged with with Mercedes and SUV's but the ordinary working stiffs (who work the long hours) are worse off than they ever were. You can't buy a house on an average income and and you can't rent an apartment either.

Maybe those Europeans are onto something?

Munkii · « **Reply #91 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:07:11 AM »

Quote

For example, if the punishment should be a funcion of income, why not rewards. This way a wealthy person should be paid much more than a poor person (for the same job).

Last I checked it does work this way. How much your worth has no direct bearing on how much you make, it's the other way around. I could be worth 400 million dollars, but if I got a job at McDonalds I would be making 5.50 just like everyone else. If someone were qualified enough to be CEO of Microsoft but was only worth 40,000 dollars, he would be paid just as much as any other CEO in his position.

mietla · « **Reply #92 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:31:06 AM »

Of course. I was just trying to show an absurdity of the "equal pain" premise.

Tuomio · « **Reply #93 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:29:23 AM »

Its primarly punishment system for being successfull and wealthy (dont forget we lived 50 years next to country that took that to the extreme, it had big influence on our political scheme), secondary its for redistributing the wealth and only after that its purpose is to give harder punishment to those who can handle more.

Its a pure jealous BS, there should be other ways to punish people, like restricting priviledges that are same to the wealthy and poor, ie. drivers licence. Overspeeding should only cost for what it costs our government, the expeses of those 2 cops and car, few bucks. I cant figure any other justification for it, money for nothing generates only corruption.

But for my understanding Staga is one of the regular finnish citizens, who believe that in the end socialistic systems generate more good than bad. They teach that happines of wealth redistribution in our schools for years and years, you will be assimilated. Wealth, age, strenght, where do you draw the line for punishment harshness tolerance and with what logic? If laws are illogical they are bad laws.

LLv34 Jarsci · « **Reply #94 on:** February 11, 2004, 05:04:04 AM »

When I was a student a while ago, I happily consumed the money given for me to finance my studies. (studying is free in Finland, state pays it all, gives some money every month so you can pay rents etc.)

That time I thought that this system is fine, gives everyone the equal change to succeed and start careers, without your parents helping.

Now I am a working man, who pays more taxes in 2 months than I got from state whole year, so I´m a little pissed off... why bother working overtime when the state takes 50% of my income?

This whole system is build on a principle that all should be equal and have same chances and services. Also that means if you make more money you will be "punished" for being so successfull

You know where this leads..?? yep , this house of cards will crash in couple of decades.

With this little background I provided you should be able to understand why this man got so big speeding ticket. Is it wrong to drive so fast ? Hell yes! (I do that too ..)

Is it right to punish so harsly? hell no, I would get a much smaller ticket if I killed someone!!!!!

You also have to understand that in Finland the road traffic is infact a "milk cow" for the State. We got long distances between cities and people are scattered all over the country, but the cars will cost at least 2x which it costs in Germany for example...

So I agree everyone who thinks that our laws considering overspeeding should belong to Ripley´s Believe it or not....

Kieran · « **Reply #95 on:** February 11, 2004, 06:24:53 AM »

Tuomio, Jarsci-

See? Perfectly reasoned and common-sense explanations of the obvious. S! to you guys for being straightforward about the laws.

We ain't perfect in America- not even close. We have our problems, as some of our Scandinavian friends love to point out (at length!). It was interesting to see it turned around on a couple of our harshest critics though, and I confess a small amount of pleasure at seeing them attempt to defend the indefensible.

ra · « **Reply #96 on:** February 11, 2004, 06:50:03 AM »

Quote

If you pay medical insurance every month that is in fact a tax of sorts.

No, it is an expense, and in fact an optional expense. Very different from a tax.

ra

straffo · « **Reply #97 on:** February 11, 2004, 07:00:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
Well, it's simple really; equal treatment under the law. Finland apparently doesn't have it. But I do have to hand it to the Finns; they have invented a brand new way to remove wealth from the wealthy. 15mph over the speed limit? That's gonna cost you $250,000.

Yeah, makes great sense.

So... your cop sees three cars speeding down an expressway... a Yugo, a Saab, and a BMW. Someone's going to get pulled over, but who? Who, who, who...

It is not illegal according to Finnish law and it's not about equal treatement but more about equal punishement.

You can make a 500+post thread it won't change the FACT that it's how Finnish law punish the offender.

someone want to start yetanother abortion/gun thread ?

Fishu · « **Reply #98 on:** February 11, 2004, 07:32:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tuomio
Overspeeding should only cost for what it costs our government, the expeses of those 2 cops and car, few bucks. I cant figure any other justification for it, money for nothing generates only corruption.

These speeding fellas and the ones going through red lights probably never realise what kind of expenses it might cause when the accident happens - due to their stupidity.

If someone gets hit by a speeding moron and survives it, he'll be spending few months of his life in hospital and rehabilitation.
That will cost quite alot.
Only accordingly harsh punishments will prevent this from happening.

Like last spring I almost got run over by a speeding driver going through red lights (which had been red for a good while and excellent visibility on the traffic lights)
Had I not for some reason felt the need to carefully look around the corner, I probably wouldn't be here today.
With the speed he was going, there wouldn't been much of a chance to survive, most likely it would been fatal.
(top of it, he had to stop at the next traffic lights, behind the traffic! .. I really gave even a second thought for running up to the car and do something...)

Thats why theres laws.

I don't see why richer people should have lower barrier to violate speed limits or such, knowing they wouldn't get punished too badly.
About the case.. I don't know this guy or his wealth, at least the fine seems pretty damn high.
But if hes very rich, he sure deserves to pay more than the johnny normal.

Kieran · « **Reply #99 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:05:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
It is not illegal according to Finnish law and it's not about equal treatement but more about equal punishement.

You can make a 500+post thread it won't change the FACT that it's how Finnish law punish the offender.

someone want to start yetanother abortion/gun thread ?

So... the Finnish law system is centered around PUNISHMENT rather than EQUAL TREATMENT? Whatsamatta, can't take it when attention is turned away from American law?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #100 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:10:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
When I was a student a while ago, I happily consumed the money given for me to finance my studies. (studying is free in Finland, state pays it all, gives some money every month so you can pay rents etc.)

That time I thought that this system is fine, gives everyone the equal change to succeed and start careers, without your parents helping.

Now I am a working man, who pays more taxes in 2 months than I got from state whole year, so I´m a little pissed off... why bother working overtime when the state takes 50% of my income?

This whole system is build on a principle that all should be equal and have same chances and services. Also that means if you make more money you will be "punished" for being so successfull

You know where this leads..?? yep , this house of cards will crash in couple of decades.

With this little background I provided you should be able to understand why this man got so big speeding ticket. Is it wrong to drive so fast ? Hell yes! (I do that too ..)

Is it right to punish so harsly? hell no, I would get a much smaller ticket if I killed someone!!!!!

You also have to understand that in Finland the road traffic is infact a "milk cow" for the State. We got long distances between cities and people are scattered all over the country, but the cars will cost at least 2x which it costs in Germany for example...

So I agree everyone who thinks that our laws considering overspeeding should belong to Ripley´s Believe it or not....

Thanks for your perspective Jarci. I've heard this from more than one "Non-student, working class" person from your country.

LLv34 Jarsci · « **Reply #101 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:41:15 AM »

I think what I said earlier was not all I had to say..

First , I don´t mind paying taxes if they give someone the same chances I got , but If I have to pay some drunkards life with my money I get pissed...this is why I have to pay 40% income tax from my salary ?

ok next subject:

In overall, Finnish laws work well , usually favoring criminal/offendant even too much so that the punishments are almost ridiculously easy comparing what they have done. But that also protects people from getting judged innocently.

There are some other weird things in our law system, for example if you see someone banging someone with a steel tube and you go and kick that M-f#ckers balls to orbit, you will get a bigger sentence than the original attacker.. He has suffered so much pain and some psychologic trauma... (read BS) (this also has led to that that no-one will interfere when you get your bellybutton kicked 4am while waiting a taxi. Luckily its changing for better nowadays)

In overall Finnish laws seem to punish people more if you steal, earn or if your crime somehow concerns money. (taxes taxes fines taxes) . All crimes done with checkbook will get you into the jail. But if you rape someone and it takes only 5 secs to come, it will be considered as light rape (don´t ask me, this happened really) and you serve some time under parole...

One thing better here is that here courts doesn´t order people to pay ridiculous amounts of money as compensations. Also people here tend to take more responsibility about their own life, than to always start suing some company/neighbor. (Is it really that bad as it looks when reading articles and watching TV?

)

In overall Finnish legislations seems to hold money in higher esteem than peoples lifes or health. But that is only my opinion..

And 170000€ speeding ticket is ridiculous in any standards. No-one in Finland has paid such sums as fines or compensations to anyone, even if the crime is murder, manslaughter , doctors mistake which ruins your whole life etc. . Why overspeeding which only caused a DANGER would be worse crime than a manslaughter where someone has already died?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #102 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:44:41 AM »

Other than the speeding ticket portion, I could have wrote that post Jarci.

Tuomio · « **Reply #103 on:** February 11, 2004, 08:45:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fishu
These speeding fellas and the ones going through red lights probably never realise what kind of expenses it might cause when the accident happens - due to their stupidity.

So, rich people then make more expensive car crashes or what?

Its just the fact that taking money is bad and corrupting way to punish somebody when that money wont go for the persons he/she has harmed.
Ie. take the licence away for a week ALWAYS and from EVERYONE who overspeeds etc. without a single possible backdoor. If such behaviour continues then add month every time. That would be equal treatment and would not corrupt our police and their supervisors.

Fishu · « **Reply #104 on:** February 11, 2004, 09:53:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tuomio
So, rich people then make more expensive car crashes or what?

Its just the fact that taking money is bad and corrupting way to punish somebody when that money wont go for the persons he/she has harmed.
Ie. take the licence away for a week ALWAYS and from EVERYONE who overspeeds etc. without a single possible backdoor. If such behaviour continues then add month every time. That would be equal treatment and would not corrupt our police and their supervisors.

If you didnt notice, I didn't say whether the fine in question was good or not.

Just saying that the rich people should pay enough to make them think twice whether its good to try out the cars performance on public roads.
Otherwise they'll be just speeding and knowing that IF they get caught, it won't be a big deal to get over the fine.

When someone is speeding +50kph over the speed limits, I really don't think nice of them... they're idiots who do not deserve a drivers license.

...of course its funny how crimes involving taxes or which otherwise profits the goverment, are resulting in higher punishments than even the violent crimes against inviduals.