What race are the French?

[Habu]

Originally posted by MJHerman
This obviously explains all the battle honours gained by the Van Doos, Les Fusiliers du Mont Royal and other Regiments that had their enlistment sources primarily from Quebec.

The deal with conscription was that ANY conscript could not be sent to the front, unless he volunteered to do so.

But don't let the facts get in your way.

Lets clarify a few of your facts. Are you saying the Quebecers who volunteered for the Van Doos were French Canadians as opposed to English Canadians?

Regarding your "facts" on overseas service and conscription. He is some background....

"When Canada declared war on Germany on 11 September 1939, then Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King knew only too well how (the implimentation of conscription in) the previous war had threatened national unity and destroyed the Conservative Party in the province of Quebec. King had promised the country --though in essence it was a pledge to Quebec -- that there would be no conscription for overseas duty; there was, however, conscription for the defence of Canada. On 21 June 1940 the National Resources Mobilization Act was enacted, giving 'government special emergency powers to mobilize all our human and material resources for the defence of Canada.' The Act called for a national registration of all eligible men and women for domestic defence, but Camillien Houde, the populist mayor of Montreal urged Quebecers to ignore the registration. Houde was interned for much of the war. "

By 1944 the overseas regiments were so short of men that 12,000 conscripts were eventually sent overseas. This is a miniscule amount and of course they were not all french.

[MJHerman]

FYI, a partial list of the Canadian Regiments that landed in Normandy.  The Regiments which originated from and drew their primary recruiting base from Quebec are noted:

12th Manitoba Dragoons
14th Royal Canadian Hussars
17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars
1st Bn. The Canadian Scottish Regiment
48th Highlanders of Canada
4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards
8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars
Le Regiment de Maisonneuve - Quebec
Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Quebec
Le Royal 22e Regiment - Quebec
Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal - Quebec
Lord Strathcona's Horse
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
The Algonquin Regiment
The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders of Canada
The Black Watch of Canada - Quebec
The British Columbia Dragoons
The British Columbia Regiment
The Calgary Highlanders
The Calgary Regiment
The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa
The Canadian Grenadier Guards - Quebec
The Cape Breton Highlanders
The Carleton & York Regiment
The Elgin Regiment
The Essex Scottish Regiment  
The Fort Garry Horse
The Governor General's Foot Guards
The Governor General's Horse Guards
The Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment
The Highland Light Infantry of Canada
The Irish Regiment of Canada
The Lake Superior Regiment
The Lanark & Renfrew Scottish Regiment
The Lincoln & Welland Regiment
The Loyal Edmonton Regiment
The New Brunswick Rangers
The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment
The Ontario Regiment
The Perth Regiment
The Princess Louise Fusiliers
The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada
The Regina Rifle Regiment
The Royal Canadian Dragoons
The Royal Canadian Regiment
The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry
The Royal Regiment of Canada
The Royal Rifles of Canada
The Royal Winnipeg Rifles
The Saskatoon Light Infantry
The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada
The Sherbrooke Fusiliers - Quebec
The South Alberta Regiment
The South Saskatchewan Regiment
The Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry Highlanders
The Three Rivers Regiment - Quebec
The Toronto Scottish Regiment
The West Nova Scotia Regiment
The Westminster Regiment
The Winnipeg Grenadiers
The Halifax Rifles
The Grey and Simcoe Forresters
16/22 Saskatchewan Light Horse

The two New Brunswick Regiments also contained a high percentage of French Canadians, as did regiments drawn from the Ottawa region and some regiments drawn from Manitoba.

So next time you choose to insult our war dead, please make sure you have your facts straight.

[MJHerman]

"Lets clarify a few of your facts. Are you saying the Quebecers who volunteered for the Van Doos were French Canadians as opposed to English Canadians?"

You obviously have no idea of who the Van Doos are or anything about their regimental history if you even need to pose this question.

Don't preach to me about the facts of the history of the Province I grew up in and the military I served in which, by the way, was a Quebec regiment with a 50/50 split between Anglophones and Francophones.

No one hear suggested that conscription in Canada was not a major political issue and that Quebecers, in general, opposed it.  But the opposition was for political reasons and was a function of the history of our nation, and had very little to do with any cowardice on the part of young men in Quebec.

[straffo]

Originally posted by MJHerman
No one hear suggested that conscription in Canada was not a major political issue and that Quebecers, in general, opposed it.  But the opposition was for political reasons and was a function of the history of our nation, and had very little to do with any cowardice on the part of young men in Quebec.

sure, supported by this for exemple :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944

[Habu]

Originally posted by MJHerman
"Lets clarify a few of your facts. Are you saying the Quebecers who volunteered for the Van Doos were French Canadians as opposed to English Canadians?"

You obviously have no idea of who the Van Doos are or anything about their regimental history if you even need to pose this question.

Don't preach to me about the facts of the history of the Province I grew up in and the military I served in which, by the way, was a Quebec regiment with a 50/50 split between Anglophones and Francophones.

No one hear suggested that conscription in Canada was not a major political issue and that Quebecers, in general, opposed it.  But the opposition was for political reasons and was a function of the history of our nation, and had very little to do with any cowardice on the part of young men in Quebec.

Wow you have really set me in my place. I have a question. You say that the regiment was 50 percent english, what percentage is the english population in Quebec?

[Habu]

What I would like you to pull up is the number of English speaking soldiers in those Quebec regiments. Now compare that stat to the number of French soldiers. Now compare that to the population of Canada.

Don't get smart with your facts. The conscription crisis did not start because the French were pulling thier weight. I did not invent the crisis. You only make yourself look stupid when you state facts that upon closer scrutinity disprove your argument.

Originally posted by MJHerman
FYI, a partial list of the Canadian Regiments that landed in Normandy.  The Regiments which originated from and drew their primary recruiting base from Quebec are noted:

12th Manitoba Dragoons
14th Royal Canadian Hussars
17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars
1st Bn. The Canadian Scottish Regiment
48th Highlanders of Canada
4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards
8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars
Le Regiment de Maisonneuve - Quebec
Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Quebec
Le Royal 22e Regiment - Quebec
Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal - Quebec
Lord Strathcona's Horse
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
The Algonquin Regiment
The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders of Canada
The Black Watch of Canada - Quebec
The British Columbia Dragoons
The British Columbia Regiment
The Calgary Highlanders
The Calgary Regiment
The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa
The Canadian Grenadier Guards - Quebec
The Cape Breton Highlanders
The Carleton & York Regiment
The Elgin Regiment
The Essex Scottish Regiment  
The Fort Garry Horse
The Governor General's Foot Guards
The Governor General's Horse Guards
The Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment
The Highland Light Infantry of Canada
The Irish Regiment of Canada
The Lake Superior Regiment
The Lanark & Renfrew Scottish Regiment
The Lincoln & Welland Regiment
The Loyal Edmonton Regiment
The New Brunswick Rangers
The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment
The Ontario Regiment
The Perth Regiment
The Princess Louise Fusiliers
The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada
The Regina Rifle Regiment
The Royal Canadian Dragoons
The Royal Canadian Regiment
The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry
The Royal Regiment of Canada
The Royal Rifles of Canada
The Royal Winnipeg Rifles
The Saskatoon Light Infantry
The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada
The Sherbrooke Fusiliers - Quebec
The South Alberta Regiment
The South Saskatchewan Regiment
The Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry Highlanders
The Three Rivers Regiment - Quebec
The Toronto Scottish Regiment
The West Nova Scotia Regiment
The Westminster Regiment
The Winnipeg Grenadiers
The Halifax Rifles
The Grey and Simcoe Forresters
16/22 Saskatchewan Light Horse

The two New Brunswick Regiments also contained a high percentage of French Canadians, as did regiments drawn from the Ottawa region and some regiments drawn from Manitoba.

So next time you choose to insult our war dead, please make sure you have your facts straight.

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Habu
What I would like you to pull up is the number of English speaking soldiers in those Quebec regiments. Now compare that stat to the number of French soldiers. Now compare that to the population of Canada.

Don't get smart with your facts. The conscription crisis did not start because the French were pulling thier weight. I did not invent the crisis. You only make yourself look stupid when you state facts that upon closer scrutinity disprove your argument.

OK smart guy.  Why did the conscription crisis start?  You seem to have all the answers, so I look forward to me educated on my nation's history by you.

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Habu
Wow you have really set me in my place. I have a question. You say that the regiment was 50 percent english, what percentage is the english population in Quebec?

Approximately 80%.

Now I'll just wait for you to say something dumb like "That proves my point because the regiment is not 80% French" without having any understanding of my regiment, its history or the demographics of the region in which it was raised.

Still waiting for an answer to whether you have any idea who the Van Doos are.

[Habu]

Originally posted by MJHerman
Approximately 80%.

Now I'll just wait for you to say something dumb like "That proves my point because the regiment is not 80% French" without having any understanding of my regiment, its history or the demographics of the region in which it was raised.

Still waiting for an answer to whether you have any idea who the Van Doos are.

Actually what we are discussing is how French Canadians did not enlist to fight in both world wars.

You mentioned the Van Doos. I asked what proportion of the Van Doos were english compared to french. You said they were 50% english while Quebec is only 20% english. At the time of WW2 what was the french percentage of the regiment?

Now smart guy. Tell me how anything you have said in this thread supports the argument that the French pulled their weight in WW1 or 2?

You seem to want to fight but you have no argument nor ammo.

[Hortlund]

FFS it took 2 minutes of Google to find the answers.

The gvt came up with the  "National Resources Mobilization Act" (NRMA). This was a sort of "Home conscription" with the Goal to  train Canadians to protect Canada. These NRMA conscripts would NOT be forced to serve overseas.

English Canadians felt that these NRMA's were mostly French Canadians who did not want to serve overseas. They were nicknamed "Zombies"

English Canadians felt that more help was necessary and demanded a general conscription.

The gvt did not want to order a general conscription, so as a compromise, a referendum was held.

The majority of Canadians did agree to conscription.
63% to be exact.

But lets take a look at the breakdown of the numbers, how did the different parts of Canada vote on conscription:

71.2% NO     -Quebec   
77% YES       -English Canada
63% YES       - Across Canada


16 000 were eventually conscripted from the NRMA to the "normal" army.

Of these,  2 500 conscripts went overseas, where 69 died.

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Habu
Actually what we are discussing is how French Canadians did not enlist to fight in both world wars.

You mentioned the Van Doos. I asked what proportion of the Van Doos were english compared to french. You said they were 50% english while Quebec is only 20% english. At the time of WW2 what was the french percentage of the regiment?

Now smart guy. Tell me how anything you have said in this thread supports the argument that the French pulled their weight in WW1 or 2?

You seem to want to fight but you have no argument nor ammo.

Actually, I said that my Regiment, in the early 1990s, was 50/50, which was and still is highly unusual given that it is based in a predominantly English area of Montreal.

If you were doing anything other than talking out of your bellybutton you would know that the Van Doos are The Royal 22e Regiment, and historically their ranks have been almost 100% French Canadian.
The same is true, both historically and currently, for all other "French" units of the Canadian Forces.

Again, please continue to insult our war dead with your diatribe about how French Canadians did not pull their weight.  It's idiots like you who perpertuate myths about certain segments of society without understanding the historical background to certain events, which in the case of conscription, go back a lot further than 1939 or 1917.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
FFS it took 2 minutes of Google to find the answers.

You should have economized 1.5 minute by reading the link I posted before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referenda_in_Canada

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Hortlund
FFS it took 2 minutes of Google to find the answers.

The gvt came up with the  "National Resources Mobilization Act" (NRMA). This was a sort of "Home conscription" with the Goal to  train Canadians to protect Canada. These NRMA conscripts would NOT be forced to serve overseas.

English Canadians felt that these NRMA's were mostly French Canadians who did not want to serve overseas. They were nicknamed "Zombies"

English Canadians felt that more help was necessary and demanded a general conscription.

The gvt did not want to order a general conscription, so as a compromise, a referendum was held.

The majority of Canadians did agree to conscription.
63% to be exact.

But lets take a look at the breakdown of the numbers, how did the different parts of Canada vote on conscription:

71.2% NO     -Quebec   
77% YES       -English Canada
63% YES       - Across Canada


16 000 were eventually conscripted from the NRMA to the "normal" army.

Of these,  2 500 conscripts went overseas, where 69 died.

Hortlund,

Your numbers are correct, and again I will say that no one here was advocating that Quebecers were strongly against conscription.  But the issue has been simplified too much, and the numbers don't reflect the reasons WHY conscription was so strongly rejected.  To understand those reasons, you have to understand the underlying historical tensions.

The fact is that the majority of ALL Canadians voted in favour of conscription.  So, regardless of what Quebecers may have felt about the issue, once it was resolved the will of the majority was respected.

Painting French Canadians generally as cowardly simply as a result of the exercise of their democractic right to vote against a measure that they did not believe in is like saying every American who does not support the invasion of Iraq is a coward.

[Habu]

Actually Hortland I wanted the french connection here to start to read all of that so they would begin to understand how bravely French Canadians helped fight for France in the wars.

The "official" Canadian history trys to justify the reasons the French did not enlist by saying the officer core was english speaking and other such nonsense. It is always easy to go back after the fact and find reasons not to enlist. What they miss is how the English speaking Canadians enlisted in WW1 even though there was no army nor command speak of. They joined then they created one. They fought under British officers until they had qualified Canadians to step up and lead. Then they produced some of the top aviators and generals and most sucessful divisions in the war.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Habu
Actually Hortland I wanted the french connection here to start to read all of that so they would begin to understand how bravely French Canadians helped fight for France in the wars.

The "official" Canadian history trys to justify the reasons the French did not enlist by saying the officer core was english speaking and other such nonsense. It is always easy to go back after the fact and find reasons not to enlist. What they miss is how the English speaking Canadians enlisted in WW1 even though there was no army nor command speak of. They joined then they created one. They fought under British officers until they had qualified Canadians to step up and lead. Then they produced some of the top aviators and generals and most sucessful divisions in the war.

BS look at the official 22 regiment site and the part about WWI.

cannon fodder ring a bell ?