Author Topic: A world without the US  (Read 7598 times)

Offline wklink

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A world without the US
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2004, 09:31:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
You may want to check how much more money South is using for arming than North, also check out how much bigger army is South capable to pull up from its ranks than North.

Answer to those is 2 - 2,5 times more; in money and in man power.
South wouldn't have any problems to defend itself from North if given few years time to build up its army.


The US presence is more psychological than physical in the ROK these days.  Yes, we have quite a few troops there but compared to the NK forces we are piddly.  Our biggest support would be in the air, not on the ground.

As for the ROK army, don't count on the North Koreans taking the peninsula.  I was in Korea from 99-00 and got a chance to see their military, they are very professional, pretty well equiped (their K1 is very similar to our M1) and they don't have any desire to give up the relative wealth they have built up to the bunch in Pyongyang.  Add to this the fact that about 60 percent of their male population is either in the army or has been in the Army within the last 20 years.  

I think the NK Army would take Seoul and maybe a few miles south but they have no logistical support.  Their country is starving and they are barely able to keep their army fed in garrison.  ON the move would be very hard to keep up with.  Granted they could forrage off of land taken in the South but that would be limited, especially if they use persistant agents in any kind of chemical attack.

Where the danger lies with a US withdrawal from the entire area lies in the Japanese/Korean/Chinese relationship.  I don't doubt for a moment that if the US pulled out of the region that Japan would become a nuclear power within 6 months.  This would be in direct response to NK nuclear ambitions.  I would bet South Korea would be nuclear within a year as well.  This of course would chill relationships between these countries and China even more.  I would expect a SK/Japan pact (if they can get beyond past anamosities) against NK aggression.  In response you might see other alliances with China/NK, maybe Vietnam (although I doubt it).  I can see a big rush for people to take sides in the power vacuum.   I could easily see an asian version of the NATO vs Warsaw Pact setup of the 60's.

The sticking point would be Taiwan.  Maybe China would take the island back but if they didn't then Taiwan would of course try to join the Japan/SK alliance.  If they were allowed to join an asian NATO then this could be a sparking point for a full blown conflict in Asia.

Might make a good novel.
The artist formerly known as Tom 'Wklink' Cofield

Offline Toad

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A world without the US
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2004, 11:58:47 AM »
Curval,

The initial part of the airlift was primarily ammunition; TANK ammunition too. The promise to make good all loses did allow the release of the reserves; in short, they committed and were "all in". No forces held back.

Now while the unloading of TOW's and Mavericks from C-5's and C-141's was going on "Israeli and Egyptian armor, maneuvering just 100 miles to the southwest, were locked in a desperate tank battle that would prove to be the largest clash of armor since the World War II Battle of Kursk".

The use of these TOW's and Mavericks "According to the Defense Intelligence Agency, these weapons were responsible for the majority of Israeli tank kills (Arab losses were estimated at 1,900 tanks during the war). Since the TOW and Maverick were not present in the Israeli inventory in any significant numbers before the war began, it is apparent that the missiles delivered by airlift made the difference."

OK, let's "what if".

The Israelis were extremely low on ammo. That's a "given".

The Iraeli/Egyptian tank battle was in progress. With or without the US airlift, that battle was going to be fought to the bloody end.

Israeli reserves, particularly tank reserves, were at best, not front-line units.

Quote
There were considerable differences between the Reserve units. Colonel Gideon Gordon’s 70th Mechanized Brigade was a unit that time had forgotten. Indeed, there was activity afoot to disband the unit. It was equipped with virtually unmodified World War II-vintage Sherman tanks and equally ancient M3 halftracks. The troops even still wore old football-type helmets rather than the modern plastic headgear that had been issued almost universally throughout the IDF armored and mechanized units. All things considered, the brigade was a perfect snapshot of a 1963-vintage IDF formation. It was felt that 70th Brigade could be called upon to defend prepared positions or guard lines of communications, but no one thought the unit could be effectively or even safely employed in the attack.




So, assume Nixon had not given the promise of replacing units and not authorized the airlift of ammunition and modern anti-tank weapons like TOW and Maverick.

Who do you think would have won the "largest clash of armor since the World War II Battle of Kursk"?

Had the Egyptians won, who would have been on the offensive in the Sinai?

The idea that it was "all over" before the resupply started is not supported by the historical record.

Here's a nice google-read for you and bait to get you to read it. ;)


October 1973 War & Lessons for the Arabs

Quote
As has come out in the Arab-Israeli wars, the Arabs have only a limited potential for war fighting (i.e., in terms of time.) Their defence industries and weapon transfer arrangements during the time of war cannot sustain them for a long time. I wrote this some time back in this context. ...

Of course, a major factor of the blunting of the Egyptian assault, as pointed out by Anwer El Sadat in his revealing book In Search of Identity was the supply of armour replacements i.e., some 400 tanks from the USA to Israel in the heat of the battle which not only sustained them but also provided them with the means of carrying the war into the Egyptian and Syrian soils. The Arabs lack this capability.


Now, are you calling Sadat misinformed?  ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 12:08:29 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2004, 12:39:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Who defended SK during the Korean War? Ah ... that's right; the UN did.


The US was primarilary the one doing the fighting and provided the majority of the forces. Without the USA, who would field the forces next time?

China is in the UN. Maybe China could get the UN to side with the North, then China would help out there again I'm sure.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 12:43:33 PM by NUKE »

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2004, 01:11:52 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Who defended SK during the Korean War? Ah ... that's right; the UN did.


GScholz...........are you really a member of this planet? The UN provides some blue bubble heads until there told to get out of the way. That was not the UN that landed at Inchon. The term UN is used for the US to prosecute a war without declareing one. The UN has become irrelevant...we now use the term Coalition. That could be the US and Sri Lanka it really doesn't matter.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2004, 01:26:37 PM »
Yep, it was a UN action. Made possible because the Soviet Union boycotted the Security Council and thus wasn't there to veto the involvment. Which they absolutely, most surely, without doubt would have done. In short, had the Soviets not boycotted, the UN wouldn't have been involved at all. It would be yet another case of UN failure to act.

But, hey, the UN did go. Peak U.S. troop strenght in Korea,July 1953 was 325,270.

However, by the end of 1952, the South Korean army constituted about three-fourth of the front-line troops. Folks forget they lost 137,875 soldiers killed (77 percent of the total "allied" dead), 450,742 wounded and 19,392 missing.


But other nations did participate, sending about half the forces that the US sent.










If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2004, 02:31:39 PM »
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Straffo & I would take over the world.


Somethink make me think that you won't have internal uber-security minister...

Stop dizclozing our zecret dizcutions !

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2004, 05:04:13 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
So, Weaselsan ... are you really a member of this planet?


I'm on the month-to-month plan myself.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2004, 05:17:29 PM »
I think I'd roll right out of my chair if Gscholz ever admitted he was wrong about something.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2004, 05:35:00 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why would I admit to being wrong when I am right? The defence of SK was a UN operation.


In the context you are correct GScholz. However, you have to admit that there probably would have been no UN action unless the US was involved with all our troops.

That is the question I posed here regarding SK and who would defend it in a future without US military involvment, except to directly defend our borders.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2004, 05:37:01 PM »
*ahem*- Yom Kippur?

Offline Capt. Pork

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« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2004, 05:38:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
I think I'd roll right out of my chair if Gscholz ever admitted he was wrong about something.



Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Why would I admit to being wrong when I am right? The defence of SK was a UN operation.



This reminds me a little of that game where you can get the penguin stuck in orbit. For in illustration, just make it to level four and use the gray planet.

Ellipse

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2004, 05:41:38 PM »
The only thing I see the UN is useful for doing is wasting paper and killing forests, but that's about it. When the resolutions come, it usually falls to the US to provide the lion's share of forces or money to support whatever conflict du jour. If you go back to the original post, that's one way to look at it- who'd take up the slack if the US was gone?

The other way to look at the question is "Would the world like us again?"  Probably not. If we aren't handing out money or support we don't have too many friends: UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and a few other Commonwealth countries excepted.

Offline stiehl

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« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2004, 06:38:03 PM »
I think that the ROK military forces would defend SK if we pulled troops out. Prob. along with a several thousand Americans that don't appreciate having their relatives killed.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2004, 06:47:53 PM »
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ROK:

The army consists of the Army Headquarters, the three army commands, the Aviation Command, and the Special Warfare Command. The army possesses component units including 11 corps, 49 divisions, and 19 brigades, some 560,000 troops, some 2,360 tanks, 5,180 pieces of field artillery, and 2,400 armored vehicles.

DPRK:

North Korea continues to position forces into the area just north of the DMZ— in a position to threaten Combined Forces Command and all of Seoul with little warning. Seventy percent of their active force, including approximately 700,000 troops, over 8,000 artillery systems, and 2,000 tanks, is postured within 90 miles of the Demilitarized Zone. This percentage continues to rise despite the June 2000 summit. Most of this force in the forward area is protected in over 4,000 underground facilities, out of over 11,000 nationwide. From their current locations, these forces can attack with minimal preparations or warning. The protracted southward deployment follows a tactic of “creeping normalcy”—a significant movement over a period of many years that would attract too much international attention if accomplished over weeks or months.


And DPRK has about another 300,000 army troops besides these.

So, 560,000 versus 1,000,000 and the million will have suprise on their side most likely.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2004, 06:54:46 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
And DPRK has about another 300,000 army troops besides these.

So, 560,000 versus 1,000,000 and the million will have suprise on their side most likely.


Not to worry, we got a couple battalions of UN troops...that outta scare the crap out of em.....