New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17

[Angus]

Boroda, while the German army was rolling over the French and the British, they were running on Russian Petrol. Russia kept supplying Nazi Germany with Petrol until 1941.
Actually, Churchill used this in a debate against Stalin. At Yalta actually.

Anyway, about the Katyn stuff, everything has been posted on these forums. I once started a thread about this, where Boroda fought bravely against common sense, - and lost.
The thread name:
"Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?", the thread dates as 30th of may 2002.
(from the O club.)

Here is also a link:
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/crozier.html
Then this:
http://www.ce-review.org/00/15/polandnews15.html

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Angus
Then this:
"Why didn't you just leave Europe when we have put "bayonets into the ground"? Still protecting Europe from "asian hordes of jewish bolsheviks"? Get real. You still are, and always were AGRESSORS."

Who was supposed to leave Europe? US forces?
They'd leave if asked, actually today even they're being asked not to leave.

Ok. Now please explain me why, 10 years after our complete withdrawal from Eastern Europe, NATO moves eastwards? Maybe Estonians kindly asked them to build long-range radars, covering North-Western Russia's airspace, including Leningrad (SPb)? They definetly bribed someone in NATO to build airfields for tactical aviation within 15 minutes of flight from our Northern capital? Or maybe this is just a friendly act, a kind of charity?

It's a sign of time: fascist governments of Baltic states coming to Big Brother to "protect" their nationalistic, nazi-adoring regimes that inspire SS "veteran" demonstrations and build memorials to SS hangmen.

Yes, it's done only to protect America and Iceland from Soviet tanks! Your countries feel sooo insecure without having your aerial bandits aimed on StPeterburg!

Damn. You should see the bomb-scars on the noble marbles of cathederals in SPb. I hope we'll never let it happen again.

Originally posted by Angus

And about the agressors...when did the west push eastwards in a century's time or so? Hmm. apart from Hitler's time, the only agression between east and west is SOVIET advance. From east TO west.

Soviet advance!?

Go read some books.

1240-42: Swedes in Ingermanlandia, Teuton Order invasion into Pskov and Novgorod lands. Both got their prettythang kicked.

1610: Polish invasion to Russia. Poles went as deep as Kostroma. Got their prettythang kicked.

1700: Swedish invasion into Russia and Ukraine. Got their prettythang kicked.

1812: Napoleon's Grand Armie. Burned Moscow and got their prettythang kicked all the way to Paris.

1852-55: Crimean war. British and French troops invaded Crimea, British fleet in Finnish Gulf, White Sea and Far East (Petropavlovsk). Occupied Crimea, got their prettythang kicked in other places. Russia lost Black Sea until 1878.

1914: WWI. Declared by Russia to Austria for the attempt to conqer Serbia, the main Orthodox power in the Balcans.

1920: Polish invasion. Got their prettythang kicked all the way to Vstula.

1941: you know it.

The only "Russian invasion" seems to be a 7-year war in XVIII century, when Russian forces have visited Berlin for the first time.

I forgot some minor episodes when agressors didn't invade deep enough to be mentioned here.

Strange history, isn't it? Looks like as time goes the invasions are more and more frequent.

Don't you think that we have some reasons to be afraid of the threat from the West?...

Now we have "peacefull" NATO bases 15 minutes of flight from SPb. It definetly looks familiar, doesn't it?

Just explain me: why are you "fighters for freedom and democracy" there?

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

All (okay I didn't read 1/3rd of page 2) are making enemies out of friends.

Boroda has a different rendition of his past as opposed to those of you who were alive for it.

He clearly, atleast to a past occurance of him reading what we read, has come to understand "our" position on maybe one or two subjects.

As far as this thread is concerned, you do know Sylvester Stalone and Arnlod Schwarzenager (please forgive spelling errors) did not single handedly defeat Russia's dominant boxer or the ultimate terrorists (that failed to tell their ultimate leader the battery was low and then proceeded to urinate in his undie jamies? Every country has made a mistake in this past either through the choice of their citizens or their leaders.
-SW

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Angus
Boroda, while the German army was rolling over the French and the British, they were running on Russian Petrol. Russia kept supplying Nazi Germany with Petrol until 1941.
Actually, Churchill used this in a debate against Stalin. At Yalta actually.

We had to trade with supposed enemy to prepare for war. We sold them raw materials, and got heavy cruisers in return. Stalin made German engineers work for Red Army, and gave back mostly useless resourses, that we had plenty, unlike qualified engineers and designers. We had German motors, ball-bearings, production machinery, all the resources that we didn't have.

JFYI: German ground forces ran on erzats-benzin, and Hitler needed oil only for navy. Besides that - Baltic sea was under complete German control, and they didn't have any problems getting all nessesary supplies from Sweden.

Yes, and US companies kept on investing into German industry even after Hitler declared war on the US.

I have evidence from Soviet fighter pilots who talked to B-17 crews landed in Soviet zone that they had "forbidden" objects, that they couldn't bomb, that were US enterprises in West Germany. Isn't it funny?...

Originally posted by Angus

Anyway, about the Katyn stuff, everything has been posted on these forums. I once started a thread about this, where Boroda fought bravely against common sense, - and lost.
The thread name:
"Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?", the thread dates as 30th of may 2002.
(from the O club.)

Sorry, please give me exact links. Sounds like another repetition of Viktor Suvorov's lies paid by British intelligence.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
1240-42: Swedes in Ingermanlandia, Teuton Order invasion into Pskov and Novgorod lands. Both got their prettythang kicked.

[/b]
Yeah, Sweden got their bellybutton kicked so bad Ingermanland remained in Swedish possession to 1700-something.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Yeah, Sweden got their bellybutton kicked so bad Ingermanland remained in Swedish possession to 1700-something. [/B]

Jarl Birger. He had a good scar on his face left by St. Alexander of Neva.

Swedes didn't advance further into Novgorod Republic lands. I can call it a victory.

BTW, Carl XII was a great person. A great adventurer, and a good opponent to Peter the Great. Some people say that Ukrainian national flag (yellow-blue) was sewn from Swedish flags captured in Poltava battle...

[Toad]

Boroda, here's an overview off the web.

West Chester University is proud to announce the publication of God's Eye: Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre by Frank Fox, Professor of History. Of all the crimes in World War II, the most puzzling has been the massacre known as "Katyn Forest."

Not until the fall of the Soviet Union did the new leaders of Russia acknowledge that in 1940 their government had ordered the murder of 27,000 Polish officers. For the grieving Polish nation that knew this truth for half a century there was the unfinished task of finding the burial places. The twentieth century has recorded millions of brutal deaths as well as unprecedented efforts to eradicate or hide the scenes of mass murder. In recent times, Cambodia, Srebrenica in Bosnia, Sri Lanka, Chile, Guatemala, the killing grounds in Africa and the province of Kossovo are proof that the end of Soviet and Nazi dictatorships did not put a stop to massacres and concealments.

God's Eye describes the painstaking and unheralded work of a young Polish-American photo-interpreter, Waclaw Godziemba-Maliszewski, who was instrumental in the effort to locate the remains of the brave soldiers. It began when he came across a hoard of German aerial photographs at the National Archives and began to unravel one of the most closely guarded secrets of the Russian intelligence services -- the burial sites of the Polish officers. For the past ten years he has been supplying the Polish authorities with information that has enabled it, in spite of opposition and interference from the Russian side, to locate many of the remains.

It is particularly important that the American public read this record at a time when American treasure and trust are being invested in a Russia whose leaders until recently concealed the truth about Katyn, pensioned off its executioners and refused to compensate the victims' families. This work utilizes materials from Polish, German, Russian and American sources, including documents that have only recently been declassified. God's Eye shows how in a struggle between the expediency of state power and moral principles, the dedication of one person can make a difference.


Frank Fox came to the United States from his native Poland in 1937. During the war he served in Military Government in France and Germany. He holds a doctorate in history from University of Delaware and taught at Temple University and West Chester University. He was the recipient of research grants from the American Philosophical Society and the Eleutherian Mills (DuPont) Foundation.

His writings have appeared in a variety of scholarly and popular publications, including Jahrbucher fur Geschichte Osteuropas, French Historical Studies, Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography, East European Jewish Affairs, New York magazine, PRINT, The World & I, and Affiche. He contributed a chapter on Polish poster art for Tony Fusco's reference work Posters (New York, 1994) His essay "Poland and the American West" has been published by Washington State University Press in Western Amerykanski, a catalog for the 1999 exhibition at the Gene Autry Museum of Western Heritage. He has edited and translated from Polish a wartime memoir, Am I a Murderer? Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman, published in 1996 by Harper/Collins, and has written poetry for a cantata based on that work which premiered in Philadelphia in 1997. In 1998 he was invited to lecture at the National Museum in Warsaw on the occasion marking the 30th anniversary of the Polish Poster Museum.


Frank Fox, Author

 

[miko2d]

Boroda: Check recent Miko's posts on this subject.

Nath[BDP]: I'd rather just read the author from which his arguments were most likely regurgitated.

Sounds like a Soviet propagandist.


 Hey, Nath[BDP]!
 Do you claim that you personally oversaw the Marshall plan and have the first-hand knowlege of it? Maybe your real name is Marshall?

 If you call all knowlege not gained first hand "regurgitated" and "Soviet propaganda", you are an idiot. Because everyone else here learned about the Marshall Plan - and pretty much everythiong else - second or theird-hand - from books and teachers. Who am I kidding? I am probably the only one who cared tor ead up on it.

 Here is what I found - in US government sources which are probably the soviet propaganda for an imbecile like you:

Germany has to thank the Marshall Plan for a total of almost $1.4 billion received in aid. In addition, while the German government was receiving help from the Marshall Plan, it was still obliged to make reparations and restitution payments that amounted to well over half the funds received from the United States from the Marshall Plan. ( $1.4 billion - a measly $12.4 billion in 2002 money of which over half was paid right back?)
France received a grant of over $2.7 billion from the Marshall Plan - nearly twice as much as Germany - but it still took France 30 years to reach the economic level Germany arrived at within less then 15 years.

When looking at these statistics and the fact that it took Germany only half as long as France to reach a comparable economic level of develop, we must ask ourselves what caused the German "economic miracle". It is clear that the Marshall plan was not the major contributor to Germany's rapid economic growth.

 Don't drag me into your stupid ignorant squables. I have as much use for american fascists like you as I have for ex-soviet communists.

 If you had some problem with the numbers on Marshal Plan I posted in a separate thread in November, you should have posted then and presented whatever numbers you think more accurate.



Boroda: 1920: Polish invasion. Got their prettythang kicked all the way to Vstula.

  It was soviet bolshevics who invaded Poland in 1920 and got their tulips kicked out.

 miko

[Nath[BDP]]

Originally posted by miko2d

Hey, Nath[BDP]!
 Do you claim that you personally oversaw the Marshall plan and have the first-hand knowlege of it? Maybe your real name is Marshall?

 If you call all knowlege not gained first hand "regurgitated" and "Soviet propaganda", you are an idiot. Because everyone else here learned about the Marshall Plan - and pretty much everythiong else - second or theird-hand - from books and teachers.

miko

I'm not saying that at all.  But, if you think that one cannot form new and innovative conclusions from different sources on historical events--and without stealing them from authors and posting them on a BBS--you are fooling yourself.  Of course, I would expect you to give a reply that attempts to legitimise your own inability for independant thought.

[straffo]

Originally posted by miko2d
It was soviet bolshevics who invaded Poland in 1920 and got their tulips kicked out.

 miko

hu ????
I thought it was it was poland who started ?

[Angus]

Boroda.
Ok, there we go again:D

"Ok. Now please explain me why, 10 years after our complete withdrawal from Eastern Europe, NATO moves eastwards?"

Well, I guess you are referring to the Baltics? They're "moving" towards the west in a sense....ummm....could it possibly mean that they don't want YOU guys back

Oh, and I stand corrected with the "east" indeed being invaded in the last 100 years, - Poland did invade ukraine, and of course I bloody well know that the Germans rolled eastwards. I don't count nazi Germany and western forces as the same.

But I was surprized that you immediately admitted the business deals between the USSR and Nazi Germany. Well, grabbing for excuses, most of your reply is utter BS, such as the heavy German built cruisers for a start.
Germany built 3 light cruisers (Königsberg class, 6000 tonnes) and used them, 5 heavy cruisers (Hipper class, 14000 tonnes) and used them. They never had enough cruisers, maybe you are referring to destroyers?

Then on to the Katyn forest. I did give you links, and this:
"I once started a thread about this, where Boroda fought bravely against common sense, - and lost.
The thread name:
"Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?", the thread dates as 30th of may 2002.
(from the O club.) "
This is how you find it on these boards Boroda, I just don't know how to get the URL for it. This is the exact thread name and date on this very board. It has pictures. links and docyments. Molotov and Ribbentrop, etc, etc.
More links, or do you need glasses?

http://www.katyn.org.au/
and
http://www.pharo.com/warfare/katyn_forest/articles/wwkf_00_contents.asp
and
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/01/spotlight/
and
http://www.ce-review.org/01/11/books11_rohozinska.html
Enough?

[GRUNHERZ]

Enough?

Not for boroda, never!!!!!

Resit comrade, resit!!! Za rodinu!!!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Angus
But I was surprized that you immediately admitted the business deals between the USSR and Nazi Germany. Well, grabbing for excuses, most of your reply is utter BS, such as the heavy German built cruisers for a start.
Germany built 3 light cruisers (Königsberg class, 6000 tonnes) and used them, 5 heavy cruisers (Hipper class, 14000 tonnes) and used them. They never had enough cruisers, maybe you are referring to destroyers?

"Petropavlovsk" heavy cruiser, renamed to "Tallin" on Sep. 1, 1944, "Admiral Hipper" class, original Geman name "Lutzov" (sp?), bought in 1940, incomplete, construction continued on Baltic shipyard. Still incomplete in 1941, only 70% ready. Sunk by German artillery on Sep. 17, 1941. Later repaired and used as a floating battery.

http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/cruisers/typ_hipper.htm

Next, please.

I don't know if USSR supplied oil and petrol to Hitler. I doubt it. What I know is that the quality of raw materials sold to Germany was so low that they could not be processed by Sovet industry. "Trading with Hitler" is one of the most brilliant Soviet foreign contracts: we got vital resources for nothing. You see, it was a free market. Why didn't "allies" offer same materials for lower price? Only one year later we had to pay solid gold for crappy second-hand fighter planes and tin tanks.

I start to understand your point of view: USSR had to fight nazis alone, pay for the opportunity to keep "allies" from war (like they did until 1944) in gold, and after defeating Germany you want us to kindly give all the lands taken by Soviet Army to "allies" for free. Very clever. Fortunately we didn't have Gorbachev at that time.

[Boroda]

Unfinished Petropavlovsk cruiser:

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
Only one year later we had to pay solid gold for crappy second-hand fighter planes and tin tanks.

[/b]
Well, that's got to be the first time someone calls the Spitfire a "second-hand fighter". I see you forgot to include all the trucks, boots, locomotives, radios, foodstuffs etc etc...but I guess your propaganda class forgot to include those.

Just out of curiosity Boroda, are you ready to admit how important lend lease was to the soviets? And try to see beyond the crappy spitfire planes and Sherman tanks now. Im talking about the other things now, the boots, the locomotives, the radios, the trucks...

I start to understand your point of view: USSR had to fight nazis alone, pay for the opportunity to keep "allies" from war (like they did until 1944) in gold, and after defeating Germany you want us to kindly give all the lands taken by Soviet Army to "allies" for free. Very clever. Fortunately we didn't have Gorbachev at that time.

No, you should not give any lands to the allies, you should have returned them to their rightful owners by giving them back their independence.  

Instead you took over the nazi job and kept those nations opressed under a brutal totalitarian dictatorship for more than 50 years.

****ing *******s.