Author Topic: New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17  (Read 5374 times)

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2004, 06:32:29 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
Boroda, you sheep-head!


Thank you. I am sincerely pleased by the degree of mutual respect in this civilized discussion. :p


Quote
Originally posted by Angus

What was going on in land warfare in the timeframe from Stalingrad to Kursk? Nothing apart from the eastern front?
Forgot the Desert war have we? Have you also forgotten the Italian campaign? This is all before Normandy.
I have had the fortune of studying LW loss reports from 1942 to 1944 from original source (microfilms actually).
It came as quite a surprize to me that the LW seemed to loose roughly the same number of aircraft in the desert war as they did while fighting at Stalingrad for instance. Which is a total surprize since the British planes were obsolete jink compared to the russian rata's :D


Desert War my...!!! The number of nazi troops in Stalingrad kettle was how many times more then total number of troops in Northern Africa? Five? Ten? You probably don't realize the scale of warfare on Russian front. We lost 27 million people during the War. All "allied" operations before Normandy were minor clashes in terms of Soviet command. Looking at WWII from Iceland must be interesting. Having such a great military history in last 500 years makes you see no difference between operations of batallions and fronts.

Quote
Originally posted by Angus

And, for your info, the British did have to pay pay for their stuff, buying stuff from the USA I mean. Before they could get their first batch of lend-lease hardware (obsolete WW1 destroyers, however better than nothing), the US dispatched a cruiser to pick up gold from cape town. THAT WAS WHILE GUDERIANS TANKS WERE RUNNING ON RUSSIAN FUEL, supplied by the nice Hitler-Stalin brotherhood. Hehe, Stalin even got the blueprints from Bismarck as a trade piece, I bet he had a nice time looking at those.


Americans decided not to take money for lend-lease from UK and other allies except USSR. As for the destroyers - check out what "lend-lease" means, and when the "lend-lease" law was signed. OTOH, British supplies to USSR were not "lend-lease" and were paid in gold immediately. I already mentioned HMS Edinbourgh here, sunk by Brits after it was damaged by German torpedo, with full load of Soviet gold aboard.

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Originally posted by Angus

As for the UK/US not supplying the USSR with battleships or cruisers, it went OK didn't it. After all, the Royal Navy sort of "took care of" the big rides of the Kriegsmarine, with a little help from the RAF may I add.
Oh, blimey, no, the Russians were vital in the destruction of the Tirpitz, - It got hit from a Russian field actually ;) Advanced airbase a-la-USSR ;)


Let's get back to the beginning of this thread. British escorts chickening from PQ-17 after Tirpitz left harbour is a good example of "taking care of the big rides of the Kriegsmarine". And after that Tirpitz was damaged by a lonely Soviet submarine...


Quote
Originally posted by Angus

Then finally, I must confess, I never heard "the voice of America".
I also must confess, that I did read a leftie-magazine in my country called "News from the Soviet Union". It had a lot of news from Pravda. Used to give me giggles for weeks.
Also, we did have news from TASS, just as well as Reuters. Did you have Western radio in the USSR? I seem to recall some Poles I know telling me about the western channels being scrambled as much as possible.............


News from Pravda were a good laugh for most of Russians too :) "Vocie of America", "BBC Russian Service", "Radio Liberty" were anti-Soviet propaganda radios, providing us with "true information". After Chernobyl "VoA" stated the number of victims daily. It went up from 1000 dead on a first day all the way to 70,000 in a week or two, after that I stopped listening to this crap.

Yes, this propaganda radios were jammed in big cities like Moscow, but with a decent radio (I had a first class tube radio made in 1968 with a good antenna) you could hear their transmittions. Jammers worked only in big cities, 100km away from Moscow, Leningrad or Kiev you could listen to them on cheap transistors with short-wave band.

I have to admit that BBC had beautiful musical programms in Russian. Some of my friends even recorded them on tapes. Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd history programms were the only source of information about our favourite bands...

Offline Hortlund

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2004, 06:57:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
And after that Tirpitz was damaged by a lonely Soviet submarine...


Yeah...I wonder why nobody aboard the Tirpiz noted the damage though.


"Sobald Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer und Admiral Hipper die offene See erreicht hatten, kam die küstennahe alliierte Sicherung zum Tragen. Um 17:00 Uhr meldete ein russisches Uboot den Verband und griff die Tirpitz an, etwa 45 Meilen nordwestlich des Nordkaps. Zwei Torpedotreffer wurden von K 21 gemeldet aber keiner wurde erkannt, geschweige denn von den Deutschen bemerkt, diese hatten nicht einmal den Angriff selbst bemerkt. Um 18:16 Uhr, eine Stunde nachdem K 21 die Sichtmeldung abgegeben hatte, sichtete eine Catalina von Grasnaja/ Archangelsk die Tirpitz Nordost vom Nordkap und meldete dies."

(From the wardiary of the Tirpiz)

Offline Dowding

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #137 on: February 24, 2004, 07:53:22 AM »
Boroda - You are funny, I'll give you that. Deluded, but funny. Do you really believe four destroyers and a handful of corvettes would have stood a chance against Tirpitz and Prinz Eugen? They would have been sunk in a couple of salvoes and then the convoy would have been destroyed ship by ship. Scattering the convoy was the only option in the face of such a threat.

BTW, my grand-father was on the Russian convoys.

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Americans decided not to take money for lend-lease from UK...


Wrong! The money for arms practically bankrupted the British government prior to the US entering the war.

As for Russia - well, it was run by a nutcase despot and enemy of the West. Not really an ally at all. The West didn't owe Stalin anything; they just had to make sure he didn't lose.

BTW, I love the line about how the people of Eastern Europe 'chose' to be under the Soviet yoke. lol! Those East Germans demanding to be let into the West on that cold night in November, 1989 must have all been insane, eh? And those tanks in Hungary - they were there as part of traffic control measures! Thankyou Red Army!

Maybe one day you'll wake up and smell the manure, Boroda. But I doubt it. Soviet Russia lost the Cold War - and the whole world breathed a sigh of relief.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #138 on: February 24, 2004, 09:31:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Boroda - You are funny, I'll give you that. Deluded, but funny. Do you really believe four destroyers and a handful of corvettes would have stood a chance against Tirpitz and Prinz Eugen? They would have been sunk in a couple of salvoes and then the convoy would have been destroyed ship by ship. Scattering the convoy was the only option in the face of such a threat.

BTW, my grand-father was on the Russian convoys.


Salute to your Grandfather! Sailors who were on Polar convoys are maybe the greatest symbol of allied assistance. This people have done much more then most of the Western politicians...

My Father was a Navy cadet since 1943. In 1944 they had a "field practice" at Northern Fleet, and he served several weeks on battleship "Archangel'sk" ("Royal Soverign")...

Now back to the subject. Now I will repeat what was the Soviet version of PQ-17 tradegy, sounded in "Requiem to PQ-17" by Valentin Pikul', the book upon which the new movie is based.

British forces wanted to use PQ-17 as a bait to catch Tirpitz. The battleship/CV task force followed the convoy, IIRC north of it's route, to intercept Tirpitz and sink it, something like a "Sharnhorst" trap a year later. But due to the order from Admiralty (IIRC) the task force turned back and left the convoy helpless.

IIRC, Admiral Golovko's memoirs describe it in the same way. I'll check his book, "Together with the Fleet" later, I don't remember if I have it at home or at my Father's.

This is what we have been told in popular literature. Pikul' was famous for twisting historical truth sometimes, and historical inaccuracy well hidden under enormous load of details. This applies mostly to his books about XVIII century, but I found some anachronisms in his books about Russo-Japanese war. I don't know, but he served at Northern Fleet during WWII and probably knew what he was speaking about.

Disclaimer: if the movie crew followed the book story line - this version will be shown in a "PQ-17" film.

I'll appreciate any links about Royal Navy role in PQ-17 tragedy. I admit that what I told can be not true.

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Originally posted by Dowding
Wrong! The money for arms practically bankrupted the British government prior to the US entering the war.


Check the dates, when US Congress signed the lend-lease law. I mean that UK didn't pay for lend-leased supplies. Also please notice that UK received several times more aid then USSR.

Quote
Originally posted by Dowding

As for Russia - well, it was run by a nutcase despot and enemy of the West. Not really an ally at all. The West didn't owe Stalin anything; they just had to make sure he didn't lose.


Thank you. It's exactly what I tried to say. Russians lost 27 millions while some nations got enormous profits out of this war (I don't mean UK). No doubt, they still think of war like it's nothing but a good business.

You don't owe anything to us. It's us who still owe you for canned pork and telephone wire.

Dowding, can you explain me why did we have to pay you gold that your own navy sunk on board of HMS Edinbourgh again? Did you know that when this gold was lifted from the sea in 1988-89 UK and USSR divided it 50/50 again?...

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #139 on: February 24, 2004, 09:51:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Yet one point:
"Did we have brave "allied" troops fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with us in Stalingrad or Kursk?"

Did we see red army troops fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Brits in Burma or Malasya?


Wrong again. Did you ever study history at school?

We hade a neutrality pact with Japan, signed in 1940. Yes, we were collaborating with all your enemies, just in case if you think Japan was a direct threat to Iceland. Oh, sorry, you had a nice experience of being "conquered" by a single pirate ship crew, so you have reasons to be afraid of everyone, including Japanese raiders and Russian tanks.

Again you ask us to start another war in the Far East, wheb we almost broke our spine beating Hitler. I am glad that you think that we Russians are all sons of Heracles, but some things are too much even for us.

In the end it was Soviet Army who defeated Japanese ground forces in Manchuria and Korea, just in case you didn't know. We followed all allied obligations, while the "second front" was delayed by the "allies" for years.

Offline Dowding

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2004, 09:54:57 AM »
He never talked about his experiences to me or any of his grand children. Sadly he died 15 years ago, yesterday, when I was 10 years old.

David Irving wrote a book about the convoy in the 60s. But he's a disgraced Nazi apologist. He argued that the whole thing was an Admiralty blunder.

As for Russia and the West - Communism was the enemy as much as Nazism. Neither was to be allowed to win. I think if you bear that in mind when considering most actions during the war, things become clearer. As for the gold - it was payment for arms. It belonged to the UK on a British wreck, but was in Russian waters. I'd say 50/50 was a fair agreement.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Angus

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2004, 10:00:17 AM »
Boroda! Sheep head is a compliment for you. It is also a delicatessen in my country! Hmm, maybe I'd rather use the term "mutton", which expresses lack of intelligence.......
Now, on to the first (meehh):
"Americans decided not to take money for lend-lease from UK and other allies except USSR."
Well, they DID, and Britain was Bankrupt from 1940/1941 onwards because of it.
It was paid with gold, firms, estates, stock and technical info.
You must have been hit by Pravda there :D
(or TASS, who declared 2-3 days after the Finland invasion that there was a new "Peoples government" in Finland")
Now, onto the Tirpitz/PQ-17 affair.
PQ 17 is a very sad story. Tirpitz actually turned around after some of its escort destroyers ran aground (N-Norway is still notorious for unexact charts). The Brits took the very questionable decision to scatter the Ships, which left them as easy pray for German subs and planes.
They were not avoiding Tirpitz, on the contrary, they were looking for the Tirpitz, with a trailing task group. The British did indeed absolutely engage the Kriegsmarine in surface battles, as you should well be aware off, loosing ships, but usually sinking the big ones as well. Well, they sank 3 out of the 4 capital German BB's, and crippled the fourth. RN 2, RAF 1 +1. The value of PQ-17 was vast, of course as you put it, worthless, crappy aircraft and so on, but well, here you go:
"Its cargo was worth a staggering $700 million. Crammed into bulging holds were nearly 300 aircraft, 600 tanks, more than 4,000 trucks and trailers, and a general cargo that exceeded 150,000 tons. It was more than enough to completely equip an army of 50,000."
My great uncle flew for the RAF at the time. He was to be sent to Russia with his squadron along with more squadrons from the RAF. Their planes never arrived in Russia, so they were re-routed to the N-African Theater. There, the RAF was doing well enough for LW squadrons to be routed FROM Stalingrad to N-Africa, incliding i.e. famous LW ace Heinz Baer.

The Battle at Kursk is no doubt the biggest land battle fought in WW2. The battle at Stalingrad was also very very big, I am fully aware. So was Normandy. So was Anzio. So was El-Alamein.Please do not fail to realize that had the RN, RAF, USSAF, British Army, US army, and the factories of those nations not been on the job, the USSR would have lost. Germany could have unleashed all their might against the USSR with no other front. And without the allied bombing campaign going on, the German manufacture and supply status would have been a lot better off.....
If you want some stats for comparison, I'll try to help you
;)

BTW, the soviet fighting method demanded many times the troops of anything known so far. Or as Zhukov once put it: "When my troops enter a minefield, my troops move over it as if it were not there"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Toad

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2004, 10:07:18 AM »
You always wonder how many of those would have lived through the war if tactics other than human wave had been used. That old "fire and maneuver" thing.

But you have to admit, reading the Fractured Fairy Tales Boroda puts out is one of the best parts of the O-Club.

"Yeah, well, Poland, sure we took their land in the partition. But let's focus on 1920 when they invaded us to get it back when it was OURS by then. And all those East European countries LOVED us. We had to build big fences to keep the Westerners out of paradise."

Gotta love it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Angus

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2004, 10:09:20 AM »
Oh, addition, our proud Icelandic military history started some 1000 years ago with plundering Britain and the Baltics, sailing into Russia (which we named "Gardariki") So, we may have snatched some of your women along with the blossoms of Britain.
Then there was peace and hunger. In ww2, we were feeding the British, whos's occupation here was most welcome, did not influence the politics, did not include executions (like in Nazi occupied states), and actually the Rape-rate was unchanged as well. Even the left parties said they were thankful about the allies behaving so well.
Then, from the 40's to the 70's we had 3-4 big scruffles with the English, all about fish really. Cannons were used, and ships kept smashing into each other. We won, expanding our limit from 4 miles to 200, all other nations were to follow. Happy?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2004, 10:10:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund

In August 1939, there was no war. Now try to understand this:

Everyone in the western world hated the soviet union.

The ONLY reason you were accepted into the allies was because Germany was a bigger threat than the USSR in 1941. No one really wanted to be allied with you, no one really cared about your plight. But "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and therefore you got lend lease, and therefore you were a part of the allies. As soon as the threat was gone, the alliance was dissolved (for your part that is, the rest formed NATO) and everyone went back to plotting the destruction of the Soviet union.


Thank you. It explains a lot. Blind hatred. It must be somewhere in the genes.

You can't understand us, and that's why you hate us. It's 1000 years old. Western Christianity vs. Eastern. Two different basic concepts of life. Two worlds.

I am happy we finaly refrained from being an only force oppossing Western conqest, but I see that you'll never leave us alone and let us live as we want to. You keep on slaughtering everyone who doesn't follow your standards, like you did with Yugoslavia.

I am glad we still have nukes.

You live for profit. We survive.

You just explained what I was telling you on three pages of this discussion.

Hortlund - dismissed.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2004, 10:13:51 AM »
Watch it Boroda.
Hortlund is still in the cold war :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Toad

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2004, 10:22:07 AM »
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Originally posted by Boroda
You keep on slaughtering everyone who doesn't follow your standards, like you did with Yugoslavia.

 


See? This is a treasure!

"Our" standards are just unreasonable. The peace-lovink pipples of Bosnia/Yugoslavia should have been left to their mutual lovefest. Such audacity to interrupt an obvious sharing and caring between two totally harmless populations.

The only injuries there prior to the evil West attacking were lips chapped from kissing each other and skinned knees from the three-legged races at the picnics.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2004, 10:27:48 AM »
Quote
The only injuries there prior to the evil West attacking were lips chapped from kissing each other and skinned knees from the three-legged races at the picnics.


Heh.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2004, 10:32:56 AM »
I've got blisters on my fingers!

;)

Look how far this discussion went. From an information about a new Russian film to usual accusation against Soviet Army for raping everything that moved to accusation of dividing Poland to accusation of trading with Hitler etc.

Whenever I beat any argument - I get 10 more. But this time I am curious if I can stand long enough so this thread will stop with my last post.

Thank you. Pouring another mug of strong Ukrainian beer, and trying to follow your attacks from 360 degrees, from above and below :)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2004, 10:34:25 AM »
"the end it was Soviet Army who defeated Japanese ground forces in Manchuria and Korea, just in case you didn't know. We followed all allied obligations, while the "second front" was delayed by the "allies" for years."

When did the russians defeat the japanese again? How lng did you delay your second front?