Author Topic: canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..  (Read 5150 times)

Offline beet1e

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2004, 02:45:28 PM »
<-- joins Mr. Toad in the beer tent for a few beers, and a discussion about crosswind landings in L1011s.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2004, 03:44:05 PM »
Lazs say what you like, but I live in one of those countries where gun control has been strengthened, and crime has not increased because of it.

You are grasping at straws, you don't have too. I'm not anti-gun, I love guns, but I don't NEED a gun. I do own an air-rifle for target practise (its legal to own an air-gun if your over 18 without a license here). When I was a kid I used to go hunting rabits on my own from about 10 with a beautiful Browning .22 Pump Action. In Air Cadets I used to love practising on the range with Fn SLR's (M16s were so pitiful compared to them). But at the end of the day there is no valid reason for me to wander around with a pistol.

Its impossible to gauge the effectiveness of the gunlaws because the only way to see if the laws were working is to put guns in hands of the general populace and see what happens. At the end of the day, MORE people per/population in USA die to gun related crimes than do in New Zealand by a freaking HUGE margin (IIRC it was 100x). I know we're lucky here, you guys make me appreciate where I live all the time.

Offline 2Slow

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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2004, 03:53:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
what if you aint armed...or what if hes carrying a much more powerfull gun thats already out? can you pull a gun and shoot before he does...


Wyat Erp gunned down two men who had the drop on him.  They were bluffing, he was not.  He pulled his pistol and shot them both.
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Offline vorticon

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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2004, 04:28:02 PM »
Quote
vort... There is no escalation of firepower as you claim. what really happens is that crooks use whatever if easily concealed or whatever they can get their hands on. ... I would much rater he have a 9mm auto and hold it sideways than a .357 mag revolver or a single action cowboy gun ruger vaquero in 44 magnum.


of course they use whats easily available...the entire point of gun control is to make sure whats easily available isnt better than what the common person has and if he knows that what he has isnt better than what anyone else has and he knows someones gonna have it then he's gonna exersize more caution...if a crooks a good shot it really doesnt matter what he has...but if he's a crappy shot then hes gonna want at least a semi auto (so he can shoot off a lot of rounds and therefore do a lot of damage) and failing that something big enough to do plenty of damage with 1 or 2 shots...

that is of course a fine theory...wether or not it actually works is pretty hard to tell...maybe canada has a lower violent crime ratebecause our criminals are smarter so they dont end up in a situation where they actually have to fire...

Offline john9001

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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2004, 04:54:59 PM »
canada has smarter criminals? you could be right.


on the subject:
some years ago in florida, rental cars had a tag that was different from a regular car tag, also rental cars had bumper stickers for the rental company.
The criminals knowing a florida resident MIGHT be armed and a tourist would NOT BE ARMED were attacking rental cars. Many tourists were car jacked,robbed , raped, killed. Of course this hurt our tourist industry.
The state passed laws making rental cars use regular tags and no rental company bumper stickers, so now a rental car looks like a normal car.
The attacks on tourists have dropped to nothing because the criminals have lost a easy target, the criminals don't know who has a gun.
Not everyone has to be armed, the criminals only have to know that SOME are armed to be detered.

Offline weaselsan

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2004, 05:42:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
LOL...I'm flattered you chose my state to use your example...but its a flawed example.

We have a strong, sportsman history and lifestyle.  99% of what we are shooting at is deer, birds, etc...we do have a huge percentage of guns per square mile (cant find the link/stat..its impressive).

We also dont have the urbania of California..nor the gangs, minorities and many other variables.


That is my point , There are an enormous amount of guns in Maine because of it's sportsman history, but only a tiny fraction of the gun crimes of California. In other words access to firearms is not the reason for gun violence. Other factors are at the heart of the problem. I knew when I posted that some would say "your reasoning is flawed because"

Offline Torque

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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2004, 06:46:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin
The Fraser Institute is crackpot right wing think tank...Sorta like Canada's answer to The John Birch Society...They even wrote "The Common Sense Revolution" which was the Ontario Conservative government's platform the last 8 years..It didn't work,ended Premeir resigning in the middle of scandels and resulted in thier conservative party getting booted outta power with the largest LIBERAL majority government in our province's history...Seems like common sense (privatising health care/Hydro Power,tax breaks to wealthy and corporations,voting huge pay increases for politicians while sticking it to welfare moms) isn't very popular up here.


Authors,

"Gary Mauser: I was born and raised in California, but purchased my first firearm in Canada after becoming a citizen. I left California in 1971 for France, where I spent three years teaching at the University of Grenoble. After a year in New Orleans, I immigrated to Canada in 1974 to accept a job at Simon Fraser University. Except for a year as a Visiting Professor at Laval University in Quebec City, I've lived in B.C. ever since."

"Taylor Buckner: I was born in Kentucky, was on the high-school rifle team briefly, hunted once with my father, did my compulsory military service, joined the Oakland, California Police Department (where I became interested in gun control), which became the source of my Doctoral dissertation. I moved to Canada in 1967 to take a job at Sir George Williams (now Concordia) University. During the twenty years I lived in downtown Montreal I was not involved with guns at all, though I had a shotgun my grandmother gave me as a high school graduation present sitting in the closet."

Offline ra

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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2004, 06:56:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
When you booted the english out.

With our guns.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2004, 05:22:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
on the subject:
some years ago in florida, rental cars had a tag that was different from a regular car tag, also rental cars had bumper stickers for the rental company.
The criminals knowing a florida resident MIGHT be armed and a tourist would NOT BE ARMED were attacking rental cars. Many tourists were car jacked,robbed , raped, killed. Of course this hurt our tourist industry.
The state passed laws making rental cars use regular tags and no rental company bumper stickers, so now a rental car looks like a normal car.
The attacks on tourists have dropped to nothing because the criminals have lost a easy target, the criminals don't know who has a gun.
Not everyone has to be armed, the criminals only have to know that SOME are armed to be detered.
I remember one such incident involving an elderly British couple who had just arrived in Miami. They'd had a long flight, were probably tired, and ended up driving into a bad neighbourhood, where they fell prey to an armed gang that drove up behind them. At least one and possibly both Britons were shot. Their assailant was a 17 year old girl.

So yes, now the rental cars have that bar code sticker on the door jamb, or somewhere else where it can't normally be seen. I remember being asked to open my door at the exit barrier for the guy to scan it when I rented a car in the US, shortly after that incident.

OK, so now the criminals can't identify the tourists. It was much easier to apply this quickfix than to face up to the real problem, which is the violent gangs, and the fact that a 17 year old girl belonging to one such gang was able to get hold of a handgun. :rolleyes:
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
With revolvers... back when they were standard... the average gunfite lasted 2.7 rounds.   Now it is about 7 or 8 depending on what study you read.    In police shootings or non gang related shootings the chance of someone being hit by stray rounds is small.   Gang shootings and drivebys which are a copy of much older gang shootings, often cause people to be injured by stray bullets..  
I'm glad I don't live in a society like that. When Britain becomes like that, I shall be on the phone to CyranoAH/Daniel to enlist his help in finding me a nice quiet villa in Spain that I can retire to.  

By the way, John9001, I've driven round cities like Madrid in a rental car that was emblazoned with big orange signs on the back and sides that said "EasyCar.Com", advertising the company and clearly identifying the vehicle as a rental car. See the photo to see how much these signs stand out. Fumbling my way around Madrid in a car which had the steering wheel on the wrong side, and where people drive on the right, and with the road signs in kilometres and Spanish, I might as well have had a big flashing neon sign which said "TOURIST". Shortly after the photo of this car was taken near the Spanish city of Réus, I drove it right into the heart of Barcelona to return it. At no time was I shot at, and at no time was I approached by armed criminals trying to rob me. At no time did I feel I was taking a risk by driving this car. Why do you think that was? Daniel already knows the answer. ;):aok

Oh yeah, and before anyone says I was "just lucky", EasyCar has literally thousands of these cars driving around in various European countries with those orange signs on them. Indeed, there's a clause in the rental contract forbidding the hirer from removing the signs. There hasn't been a single incident of an armed gang targeting these cars. Why's that then?

« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 05:59:58 AM by beet1e »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2004, 06:03:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
With our guns.


You mean the French's guns.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2004, 03:42:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
With our guns.


You guys shoulda just payed the tea-tax. The place turned to crap ever since the English left.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2004, 11:28:30 AM »
<-- taps shoe, waiting for an answer to earlier question. But there is no answer. Perhaps that is the answer itself.

:aok

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2004, 02:38:18 PM »
beetle... sorry... I skimmed your wall-o-words and didn't see a question..  I believe your question was why are tourists not targeted in england?   I believe that having your pocket picked or burglarized is being targeted.

If you are claiming that your lower homicide rate is because of you giving up your rights to defend yourselves then you are wrong... If you are claiming that living on a little island with no borders is safer than living in a vibrant country with a lot of freedom and porus borders with 3rd and 4th world countries and a large minority population of sociopaths... then I would agree... still.... the freedom and vibrant culture and economy is worth it to me.... being protected from oneselves and ones neighbors is over rated.

or... perhaps you are rightly claiming that in a nation of sheep.... what difference does it make which one you sheer?   I can see your point... In the U.S. you go for the ones you know are vulnerable... in your country everyone is vulnerable... why target rental cars?   all the people are equally vulnerable... not my idea of a good solution.

lazs
« Last Edit: February 23, 2004, 02:41:47 PM by lazs2 »

Offline Steve

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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2004, 03:06:55 PM »
nor the gangs, minorities ....


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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2004, 03:35:56 PM »
Come on, Lazs. Not even your attention span can be that short.

The question actually related to Spain, which is where the above picture was taken. But it applies to England and other European countries too.

John9001 mentioned the scenario in which people (often foreigners) driving rental cars were being targeted by armed criminals. The perceived problem was that the rental car tags identified these vehicles as easy targets, and so the tagging system was changed to disguise rental cars.

But I'm saying that overt rental car tagging is not the real problem, because in Europe there are thousands of cars with big orange signs on the back and sides, identifying them as rental cars. And there has never been an incident of these cars being targeted by armed villains.

So why's that then?

Take your time answering, and give it a good spin...
:cool: