Author Topic: The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time  (Read 17644 times)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #225 on: March 08, 2004, 05:03:21 AM »
I think this question is answerd.
Here:

Why were the losses of the allies so high?

Because of the allied method (subduing the enemy at all costs) vs the LW tactics (causing as much attrition to the enemy as possible)

And that does not really count all the years. In 1940, the tables were a bit different, - LW and RAF were pretty even, with LW doing better from jan to may, then the other way around.
In 1940, the LW lost more planes to the RAF than they did on the eastern front in 1944, - that is to say if LW figures are right.

Was it because of better pilot quality? Certainly in the beginning of the war, and certainly for a long time on the eastern front. Same applies to the tactics.
Late war the LW pilot quality was vastly lower, and an average LW pilot no longer a match for a RAF/USAAF pilot of average quality.
Then on to aircraft quality.
The LW was nicely equipped, no doubt about that. Their main escort fighter (109) however had nothing so much in its favour vs. allied interceptors (typically Spitfire), and their Interceptors (190's) had a hard time vs the Allied escort fihters (typically P51). No superiority there at least.
Play it around, 109E vs Hurricane, or 190A vs LAGG-3.......all a matter of setups.
Look better into the ground-jobs done by the airforces.
Did the LW have a ground attacker in the quality of the Tempest, P47 etc, i.e. dual quality? Did they have any heavy worker that hauled 20.000 lbs of bombs? Sure, they had fine planes, but they did definately not excel significantly in many categories in a given timeframe
:D
On to the pilot kill factor.
I think actually, that Scholzie put this spot on:
" NONE of the Allied pilots had the opportunity to amass the same number of kills as their German counterparts did."
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #226 on: March 08, 2004, 10:33:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
You still haven't answered his question, or refuted his opinion.


"Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience). "



I answered it once, I'll answer again.  The LW was on the defensive with the Allies coming to them.  Remember that the flak gunners were there too.

Go check the day to day Battle of Britain losses.  They are well documented.  How many days were there that the RAF suffered more losses then the Luftwaffe from July 1-October 1?  Luftwaffe is on the offensive over the RAF's turf where they have Radar etc to help set them up to defend.  Flak gunners are on the RAF side.  I find 3 days in those 121 where the RAF had more aircraft down and then it was only single digits more.  Most days the Luftwaffe was losing many more aircraft then the RAF often twice as many.

Now factor in the LW attacking numbers vs the RAF defending numbers at the same numbers as the Allies had attacking vs LW defending later in the war.  Throw in the improvements in Radar technology, the longer ranges etc and how would the LW numbers come out?  Would their losses be larger?  You bet.

Remember, the comment was better tactics, weapons, experience caused the disparity in losses.  Of course since the RAF was an essentially untried force during the B of B and the LW had the tactics, experience and quality, how come they lost more planes?

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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #227 on: March 08, 2004, 02:45:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, the Allied also bombed the crap out of Germany, raining a whooping million tonnes of bombs over it. The sank their fleets, and DESTROYED the LW down to a rarity level.
A bit costly, but completely effective....


I your wild yet surrealistic fantasies, dear Angie. :rofl

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #228 on: March 08, 2004, 02:48:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
I answered it once, I'll answer again.  The LW was on the defensive with the Allies coming to them.  Remember that the flak gunners were there too.


Except of course the Luftwaffe was on offense between at least 1939-43, and the Allies loss ratio to the Germans was even worser than later on, when the LW was on defense.

Just compare any German ace during BoB vs. any British ace... even the best like Johnson during their whole carreer could not shot down as many planes as Galland or Moelders did in BoB ALONE.

Sadly you can`t put up with the simple fact that these guys were just BETTER than the rest. There were many trainee pilots with JG 52 in 1943. All had the same possibilities, planes, conditions.

Why did only Hartmann emerge as the very best ? Something that your theories can`t asnwer.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #229 on: March 08, 2004, 03:14:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Except of course the Luftwaffe was on offense between at least 1939-43, and the Allies loss ratio to the Germans was even worser than later on, when the LW was on defense.

Just compare any German ace during BoB vs. any British ace... even the best like Johnson during their whole carreer could not shot down as many planes as Galland or Moelders did in BoB ALONE.

Sadly you can`t put up with the simple fact that these guys were just BETTER than the rest. There were many trainee pilots with JG 52 in 1943. All had the same possibilities, planes, conditions.

Why did only Hartmann emerge as the very best ? Something that your theories can`t asnwer.


LOL, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then won't we? :)

Short of raising Hartmann, Galland, Malan, Johnson etc from the dead and letting them have at it, we'll never know.  It will always be opinion.  It is not a fact.

John Dundas shot down 50+ kill LW ace Helmut Wicke.  That's a fact.  Does that make John Dundas a better fighter pilot?  Hard to say.  That would be an opinion.

Wicke's wingman shot down Dundas.  Fact.  Was he the best pilot of the three involved in that engagement?  That would be opinion.

Seems to me it was a 9th AF ground attack  P47 pilot who downed Galland in a 262.  That must make that Jug driver a better pilot right? Considering the difference in experience and the performance gap in aircraft, that Jug driver must be superman to have accomplished that.  The conclusion could be drawn he's the best fighter pilot ever.  I doubt you'd agree though right? :)

See how it works?  So you are entitled to your opinion, and I have mine.

Dan/Slack
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Offline vorticon

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« Reply #230 on: March 08, 2004, 04:25:32 PM »
soccer team A wins 100% of the time
soccer team B wins 70% of the time

wich team is better?

now we add this to the equation

soccer team A only ever played 1 game
soccer team B played 100

now wich team is better

add this to the equation

soccer team A is world class
soccer team B is a farm team

which team is better?

now add this

Team A always played in the best conditions
team B played in the rain on a dirt field without shoes

which team is better now?

and in the end people will still disagree...

Offline Angus

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« Reply #231 on: March 08, 2004, 07:36:06 PM »
Hehe...Vorticon...good equation..
And then, Oh dear, Isengrim, why are you so pathetically stupid...
Now you are in for a spanking lesson.
Firstly, get this right. The terrible aircraft-to-aircraft losses sustained by the allies to the dreadful Luftwaffe resulted in the destruction of the Luftwaffe. They also DID shovel a million tonnes or more  of bombs over the Reich. The Surface fleet of the Reich (anything bigger than a hide-away) was also sunk or disabled. They also won the war. However, you give this as an argument:
"I your wild yet surrealistic fantasies, dear Angie."
I will debate this into the detail, so:
Please prove me wrong there, you bed-wetting type!:D

Then we move on to your religion.
"Sadly you can`t put up with the simple fact that these guys were just BETTER than the rest. "
So, cirkumstances do have nothing to do with it?
How about Molders vs Malan then?
How about Galland vs an unknown pilot from the Duxford wing then?
How about Galland vs R.S. Tuck then (each one shooting the other ones wingman down, then Galland escaping)?
How about the times Hartmann was shot down. Or Rudorffer? Or Rall? Galland for that sake?  Divide their score with it, what do you get?

Well, anyway, let the aces be in peace..for a moment.
Comparing German scores vs. Allied during 1943 must not necessarily be compared with the BoB.
If so, Imagine LW planes attacking targets off N-Scotland, flying from the south over the whole of England. Or rather, normally, cruising over enemy/radar-visible area for roughly 90 minutes....EACH WAY. And possibly in DAYLIGHT! Sustained!
The LW NEVER got far enough to mount anything into that direction. You simply cannot really discuss any topic in this direction anyway without looking at the setup. The best of LW bomber offensive was hopping over a channel of gliding-distance, loosing more than the gain. Learning from that, they managed to nibble nicely at the allied bombers cruising many times the distance over LW territory.
But of course. You have been seen manipulating things into your favour, many times it is said. The recent thing I recall is the cockpit view thingie, I am sure you remember. If not, Straffo will provide a link :D

Conclusion:
Were the LW aircraft better?
Depending on time and category, sometimes, and sometimes not.
And:
Were the LW pilots better?
Overall, in the beginning, YES.
Average from 1943 or so onwards...NO
At the war's end: A handful of very skilful aces, but no proper strength of experienced pilots.

Total result:
No Kriegsmarine, No LW, No Wehrmacht to speak of.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #232 on: March 09, 2004, 11:03:51 PM »
Quote
Total result:
No Kriegsmarine, No LW, No Wehrmacht to speak of.....


And Germany nothing but rubble.

Angus, after the BoB and the Blitz, the only German activety in the West was defensive and the odd nusance raid.



Nothing like some spring skiing for a week.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #233 on: March 10, 2004, 08:04:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Sadly you can`t put up with the simple fact that these guys were just BETTER than the rest.  

Heh heh.  You never replied to my earlier post.  I'm still not convinced that these guys were just better in their own minds.

- oldman

Offline Ecliptik

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« Reply #234 on: March 10, 2004, 08:52:12 AM »
I don't think that on average, any German pilot with the same experience as an allied pilot is any better.  However, it's hard to dispute the simple fact that the longer you fly and more experience you have, the better you'll get.  Luftwaffe pilots flew until death or the war's end.  Some of the aces fought for the full 6 year duration of the war.  

So, it's tough for me to believe that by 1945, these guys weren't the best of the best.  

Remember, as we see in Aces High every day, even the best of the best get shot down by lesser pilots sometimes.  Nobody is invincible.  Also, I believe of the German aces who were downed several times, the number one cause was ground fire.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #235 on: March 10, 2004, 11:13:50 AM »
Quite some allied pilots had about the same operational flight hours as even the German aces.
However, many of those flew a multi-hour sortie after sortie without even seeing an enemy. Tedious work.
The late war German pilots on the other hand, had plenty of targets. They were too few, and knew so. There would be no stopping of the allied offence by sheer force. They would not be able to intercept every attack. They would not be able to stop anything. The only chance was in staying alive and causing as much damage as possible. So, the tactic was basically to engage only under favourable conditions. Those conditions could be set up nicely in cases when allied bombers cruised within German airspace and radar for as much as 2 hours.
Therefor, I don't have much doubts about their combat claims.
The bulk of allied pilots never even saw as many enemy aircraft as were downed by the German top aces.
However, this has nothing to do with pilot or plane quality, as long as the quality factor is within acceptable limits.
You may wonder how many aircraft the LW lost in Poland and France. If my memory serves me, they lost more than they claimed in Poland! I'll look it up.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline bpti

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« Reply #236 on: March 10, 2004, 07:13:30 PM »
this one! prove me wrong!



Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #237 on: March 11, 2004, 05:58:50 AM »
Why were the losses of the allies so high?
Because of the allied method (subduing the enemy at all costs) vs the LW tactics (causing as much attrition to the enemy as possible)


These... "methods"?... "Subduing the enemy at all costs" - were the Allies so blatantly stupid, to choose a method


And that does not really count all the years. In 1940, the tables were a bit different, - LW and RAF were pretty even, with LW doing better from jan to may, then the other way around.

That`s a rather funny statement, considering the RAF was virtually wiped from over Europe in 1940, and was on the edge of destruction by the second half of 1940... the LW maintained air superiority over the continent and the channel well up to the end of 1943, the RAF was never in a position to question that.


Late war the LW pilot quality was vastly lower, and an average LW pilot no longer a match for a RAF/USAAF pilot of average quality.

Correct, however the thing you forget is that it wasn`t the avarage pilot scoring most of the kills. In each airforce, it was the elite, the tip of the iceberg, that made most kills and victories, while the rest was more like assisting in that.



Then on to aircraft quality.
The LW was nicely equipped, no doubt about that. Their main escort fighter (109) however had nothing so much in its favour vs. allied interceptors (typically Spitfire), and their Interceptors (190's) had a hard time vs the Allied escort fihters (typically P51).


Probably you should start understanding the definitions first... Both the 109 and 190s were interceptors, the 109 was never designed to be an "escort fighter".

The Spitfire was not a typical fighter of the RAF as was the the 109 in the LW. The majority of the RAF fighters were Hurris, much inferior in performance to the typical LW fighter, the Bf 109E.
And this legacy was carried on - the RAF could always fielded new types of Spit with apprx. equal quality to the actual 109s, though less successfully in 1941-42. What the RAF could never do, was to match the avarage quality of LW fighters. The 109F, G, later Gs and K become widespread in the LW very quickly, but faced usually older types of Spits - 109F was common, and typicall faced Hurris and SpitVs, the 109G/190A was common, and typically faced Spit Vs, the Mark IX being far from being widespread in 1943.. it become the backbone by 1944, but then again it faced those 109Gs and Ks with much superior performance at altitude, the Mk XIV appearing only in meaningless numbers with a handful of squadrons, and even then, some were STILL flying the MkV, that was hopelessly outclassed for 2 years by then...

It appears that during the war, the RAF could compete with the best designs of the LW in quality, but failed to bring those quality aircraft onto the battlefield in numbers.


Look better into the ground-jobs done by the airforces.
Did the LW have a ground attacker in the quality of the Tempest, P47 etc, i.e. dual quality?


I guess you would have to do a bit of reading before coming here... first of all, neither the Tempest, Typhoon, nor the P-47 was designed to be a "ground-attacker". They were designed to be short ranged fighters initially, and were more or less a failure in that, that`s why they become primarly ground attackers.
They were not very fit for that, neither having the neccesary armament, and practically lacked any kind of armor needed for that role - their capabilities were rather limited, nothing comparable to REAL ground pounders. An ad hoc solutions at best, fighter bombers. Everybody fielded fighter bombers, Angie, that`s merely a fighter with a bombrack attached to it.

Otherwise, the LW, and the VVS had plenty of specialized ground pounders - FW 190 series, that carried the largest payload for a single engined fighter, for that matter... Il-2, Stukas, Hs 129.. these were all well armored, and had the specialized armament type absolutely neccesary for the task.

Grab your seat, Angie, the Allies never did have a real ground pounder/anti tank a/c. The P-47, Typhoon, Tempest was not such thing. The Hurricane w 40mm cannon was probably the best they have come up - hardly widespread.

So the question really is, did the Allies had anything comparable to the Stuka, Hs 129, FW 190F/G ? Did they fielded special anti tank armament in widespread service like the Germans (and Soviets) did?


Did they have any heavy worker that hauled 20.000 lbs of bombs?

Well, they didn`t, neither did the Allies for that matter, except if you count the B-29, which wasn`t widespread by any means, appearing only late in the PTO. Otherswise, the He 177 was, technically speaking, a better aircraft than any of the Allied heavy bombers in ETO. Faster, carrying more payload to equal or greater range (7.2 ton), having strong defense armament (unlike RAF heavies for example). So yes, they were competitive, technically, but it never become as widespread. German medium bombers, on the other hand, were the best of the war with heavier bombload than typical on Allied mediums - the total tonnage they dropped was comparable to the Allies, who had more and heavier bombers.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #238 on: March 11, 2004, 06:22:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus

And then, Oh dear, Isengrim, why are you so pathetically stupid...
Now you are in for a spanking lesson.
Please prove me wrong there, you bed-wetting type!:D


Angie, what is the highest level of education you have completed? I guess you will not answer that question. :D


Firstly, get this right. The terrible aircraft-to-aircraft losses sustained by the allies to the dreadful Luftwaffe resulted in the destruction of the Luftwaffe.

LW strenght:

1940 : ~4000 planes
1943 : ~6000 planes
1945 : ~8000 planes

They also DID shovel a million tonnes or more  of bombs over the Reich.

Half of that with zero effect, unless you count that the UK got bankcrupt in the proccess and a vassal of the USA. :p Not really surprising, considering they were mostly bombing empty fields in Germany.


So, cirkumstances do have nothing to do with it?
How about Molders vs Malan then?


Moelders shot down 25 Spitfires. How many 109s did Malan actually shot down?

How about Galland vs an unknown pilot from the Duxford wing then?
How about Galland vs R.S. Tuck then (each one shooting the other ones wingman down, then Galland escaping)?


Moelders shot down 50 Spitfires. How many 109s did Tuck actually shot down? Or the guy that doesn`t even have a name ?

You want to make the exception a rule.

How about the times Hartmann was shot down. Or Rudorffer? Or Rall? Galland for that sake?  Divide their score with it, what do you get?

Let`s try Hartmann`s example.

Hartmann scored 352 victories.
He was shot down 0 times.

AFAIK, by math theory, this means Hartmann had an infinitive number of kills (divide by zero).


If so, Imagine LW planes attacking targets off N-Scotland, flying from the south over the whole of England. Or rather, normally, cruising over enemy/radar-visible area for roughly 90 minutes....EACH WAY. And possibly in DAYLIGHT! Sustained!
The LW NEVER got far enough to mount anything into that direction.


Simple because they never needed bombing Scotland..

Why? Possible reasons :

a, England was finished off as a threat at Dunkirk. Simple as it is, they were not a real threat any longer. Yes, Winnie to Pooh could make up fantasies about the 1000-year British Empire, and speak very bravely in the BBC while being drunk, but that doesn`t change the fact after 1940 Britain was not, and never would be, in a position to challange the Germans, or disturb them significantly. Why keep flogging a dead horse? An extra hundred thousend dead Brits wouldn`t change anything, it wouldn`t make the British position any worser than it already was. It would be stupid decision from the Germans to waste resources on a country they already beaten beyond the possiblity of recovery.

b, And of course, there`s nothing in the whole of Scotland that would worth to be bombed - except for Scapa Flow, which WAS bombed, reconed on a regular basis.


You simply cannot really discuss any topic in this direction anyway without looking at the setup. The best of LW bomber offensive was hopping over a channel of gliding-distance, loosing more than the gain.

Could the RAF ever stop the LW`s bombers...? No... Did those bombers reached their target, bombed it at will ? Yes.

But of course. You have been seen manipulating things into your favour, many times it is said.

So you are not only stupid, but also a liar.

The recent thing I recall is the cockpit view thingie, I am sure you remember. If not, Straffo will provide a link :D

 :lol The question was that the Spit had inferior cocpit visibility than the 109 over the nose and wings. This was proven beyond doubt, to anybody, even to Milo. :eek: If Straffo, and you Angie want to make yourself look an even bigger prettythanghat, I have no problems with that. :rofl

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #239 on: March 11, 2004, 06:36:00 AM »
Isogrim - the master race lost WW2. Get over it.

Quote
An extra hundred thousend dead Brits wouldn`t change anything, it wouldn`t make the British position any worser than it already was.


Well 350,000 escaped from Dunkirk... and then, rearmed and with the help of the US, proceeded to kick the Germans out of Africa, Italy and France and all the way to Berlin.

Quote
Yes, Winnie to Pooh could make up fantasies about the 1000-year British Empire, and speak very bravely in the BBC...


So Lord Haw-Haw, are you some kind of admirer of Dr Goebbels? The slurs on Churchill by Hitler, weren't funny in the 1940s - they are just pathetic now.

So, my question for you is - did the right side win WW2?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 06:48:13 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.