Author Topic: Christianity Debunked???  (Read 2502 times)

Offline midnight Target

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Christianity Debunked???
« on: March 19, 2004, 03:57:33 PM »
Been kinda slow in here today...

Christianity Debunked..... yikes!

Steps slowly away from the water's edge.....

Offline Chairboy

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2004, 04:03:28 PM »
The silver bullet (in their eyes) that any christian can lean on is the 'faith' issue.

"Religion is not something that can be indexed, numbered, and filed, it is a matter of the soul!" they will say.  "I have FAITH in god, for I know that god has faith in me."

With that, the loop is closed and there is no need for logic, facts, or any other thought process which, if it doesn't help their beliefs, must therefor be tools of the devil.  A religious person is someone who can have the answers without the baggage of truth.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline vorticon

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2004, 04:05:50 PM »
because any book that details nailing someone to a tree for saying how nice it would be if we were all nice to each other for a change cant possibly have any basis in fact and the lessons inside must be total garbage :rolleyes:


so long...your a terrible dolphin

Offline VFJACKAL

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1st part....
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2004, 04:07:53 PM »
Found this by a minister in my area....His words..makes sense to me

Many times I purposefully doubt what I believe. Often I take it upon myself to ask, “How do I know what I believe is true?” “How do I know that what the Bible teaches about Christ is right and that the countless other millions, even billions, of people who believe in something or someone else other than Christ are in error?” “Why should I devote my entire life to this?” You might have asked yourself these questions recently. You may have just seen Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” and asked, “How do I know that this really happened.” During these times of doubt, my thoughts always turn to one thing more than any else—the resurrection of Christ. In my mind, if Christ rose from the grave, it is all true. Period. If Christ rose from the dead, what he said was true. If Christ rose from the dead, he deserves my full devotion.

 

But wait a minute—how do I know that the resurrection actually happened? What makes me so sure that it was an actual historic event? After all, I have never seen anyone rise from the dead. Neither have you. All the people that we have known who died are still dead. How do we know that the event of Christ’s resurrection, which goes against everything that we experience, really happened? Good question. Here is the answer, and notice I am going to place it in italics: Because the Apostles deaths. If they died because of their unquenchable proclamation that Christ rose from the grave, then the Bible is true, and Christ deserves my complete devotion.

 

What makes their death so significant concerning the “how do you know question?” Why do I say that their deaths verify Christ resurrection, which, in turn, verifies the truth of Christianity? Here is what I ask myself, “Why would they have died for a lie?” “Why would they state they saw something (i.e. the resurrected Christ) when they did not?” Think about that for a minute before you read on. Really, think about it. Here is the only rational answer that I can come up with: They would not have. They had nothing to gain. No popularity and no prosperity was gained from their lives of confession. They could have recanted at any time, but they did not. They chose to go to their deaths rather than denying the truth. What they were confessing must have been true. Christ must have raised from the grave.

 

I have spent much time researching the death of the Apostles, looking at both primary and secondary historical resources. What is the conclusion of my studies? All but one died a martyr’s death. All but one suffered and died because they proclaimed to have seen Christ die and then to have seen him alive. They all died because of an unwavering, unrecanting claim that Christ rose from the grave. If you do not believe me, do the study yourself. The resources are available.

 

Therefore, in my mind and for my faith, the gruesome death of the Apostles was one of the greatest gifts that God gave to the Church. It, for me, answers the “how do you know?” question. I have recorded the fruit of my studies on their deaths below. Read through their deaths. Think of this as your devotional for this day. This may sound odd, but in a very real sense, I thank God for killing them. I think you will to.

 

 

More exhaustive lists of the early Christian martyrs can be easily attained. Thieleman J. Van Braght’s Martyrs Mirror, and of course John Fox’s Foxes Book of Martyrs are among the secondary sources (although not necessarily the best sources). Early primary sources, such as Jerome, Eusebius, Irenaeus, Clemens, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Dionysius, Josephus, and many others give strong historical evidences that the Apostle’s sealed their testimony of a risen Christ with their own blood.  

 

 

(1) The Apostle James

44-45 A.D.

James the Apostle of the Lord was the second recorded martyr after Christ’s death (Stephen was the first). His death is recorded in Acts 12:2 where it is told that Herod Agrippa killed him with a sword. Clemens Alexandrinus and Eusebius both tell how the executioner witnessed the courage and unrecanting spirit of James and was then convinced of Christ resurrection and was then executed along with James.

 

(2) The Apostle Peter

64 A.D.

Although Peter denied that he even knew Christ three times just before Christ’s death, after the resurrection he did not do so again. Peter, just as Jesus prophesied in John 21:18-19, was crucified by Roman executioners because he could deny his master again. According to Eusebius, he thought himself unworthy to be crucified as his Master. He therefore he asked to be crucified “head downward.”

 

(3) The Apostle Andrew

70 A.D.

Andrew, Peter’s brother who introduced him to Christ, went to join his brother with Christ in eternity six years after Peter’s death. After preaching Christ’s resurrection to the Scythians and Thracians, he to was crucified for this faith. As Hippolytus tells us, he was hung on an olive tree at Patrae, a town in Achaia.

 

(4) The Apostle Thomas

70 A.D.

 

Thomas is known as “doubting Thomas” because of his reluctance to believe the other Apostle’s witness of the resurrection. After they told him that Christ was alive, he stated “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). After this Christ did appear to him, and Thomas believed unto death. Thomas sealed his testimony as he was thrust through with pine spears, tormented with red hot plates, and burned alive.

 

(5) The Apostle Phillip

54 A.D.

Phillip, who was corrected by Christ when he asked Christ to show him and the other Apostles the Father, saw the glory of Christ after his resurrection and undoubtedly reflected on Christ’s response to his request: “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Phillip evangelized in Phrygia where some hostile Jews had him tortured and then crucified.

 

(6) The Apostle Matthew

60-70 A.D.

Matthew, the tax collector, so desperately wanted the Jews to accept Christ. He wrote the Gospel according to Matthew about ten years before his death. Because of this, one can see, contained within his Gospel, the faith that he spilled his blood for. Matthew surely remembered His resurrected Savior’s words : “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matt 28:20) when he professed the resurrected Christ unto his death by beheading at Nad-Davar.

 

(7) The Apostle Nathanael (Bartholomew)

70 A.D.

Nathanael, whose name means “gift of God,” was truly given as a gift to the Church through his martyrdom. Nathanael was the first to profess that Christ was the Son of God early in Christ’s ministry (John 1:49). He later paid for this profession though a hideous death. Unwilling to recant of his proclamation of a risen Christ, history tells us that he was flayed and then crucified[1].

 

(8) The Apostle James the Lesser

63 A.D.

James was appointed the head of the Jerusalem Church for many years after Christ’s death. In this, he undoubtedly came in contact with many hostile Jews (the same ones who killed Christ and stated “His [Christ’s] blood be on us and our children” (Matt 27:25). In order to make James deny Christ’s resurrection these men positioned him at the top of the Temple for all to see and hear. James, unwilling to deny what he knew to be true, was cast down from the Temple and finally beaten to death with a fuller’s club to the head.

 

(9) The Apostle Simon the Zealot

74 A.D.

Simon was a Jewish zealot who stove to set his people free from Roman oppression. After he saw with his own eyes that Christ had been resurrected, he became a zealot of the Gospel. Historians tell of the many different places that Simon proclaimed the good news of Christ’s resurrection: Egypt, Cyrene, Africa, Mauritania, Britain, Lybia, and Persia. His rest finally came when he verified his testimony and went to be with Christ, being crucified by a governor in Syria.

 

 

(10) The Apostle Judas Thaddeus

72 A.D.

Judus questioned the Lord “Judas said to him (not Iscariot), Lord, how is it that you will show yourself to us, and not unto the world?” After he witnessed Christ’s resurrection, Judus then knew the answer to his question. After preaching the risen Christ to those in Mesopotamia in the mist pagan priests, Judas was beaten to death with sticks sealing his testimony in blood.  

 

(11) The Apostle Matthias

70 A.D.

Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot (the betrayer of Christ who hung himself) as the twelfth Apostle of Christ (Acts 1:26). It is believed by most that Matthias was one of the seventy that Christ sent out during his earthy ministry (Luke 10:1). By this, it qualifies him to be an Apostle. Matthias, of which the least is know about, is said by Eusebius to have preached in Ethiopia. He was later stoned while hanging upon a cross.

 

(12) The Apostle John

95 A.D.

John is the only one of the twelve Apostles to have died a natural death. Although he did not die a martyrs death, he did live a martyrs life. He was exiled to the Island of Patmos under the Emperor Domitian for his proclamation of a risen Christ. It was there that he wrote the last book in the Bible, Revelation. Some traditions state that he was thrown into boiling oil “before the Latin Gate” where he was not killed but undoubtedly scared for the rest of his life
« Last Edit: March 19, 2004, 04:10:46 PM by VFJACKAL »

Offline VFJACKAL

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2nd part
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2004, 04:08:42 PM »
The Apostle Paul

69 A.D.



Paul[2] himself a persecutor of the Christian faith (Galatians 1:13), was brought to repentance by an appearance of the risen Christ on his way to Damascus. Ironically Paul was heading for Damascus to arrest those who held to Christ resurrection. Paul was the greatest skeptic there was until he himself saw the truth of the resurrection. He then devoted his life to the proclamation of a living Christ. Writing to the Corinthians, defending his ministry, Paul tells of his sufferings for the name of Christ: “In labors more abundant, in beatings above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths often. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeys often, in storms on the water, in danger of robbers, in danger by mine own countrymen, in danger by the heathen, in danger in the city, in danger in the wilderness, in the sea, among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness (2 Cor 11:23‑27). Finally Paul met his death at the hands of the Roman Emperor Nero when he was beheaded in Rome.

 

After thought:

I, however, might be justified in objecting to this. You may already have thought of this. You may be stating, “Don’t may people die for something they believe? The 9-11 bombers believed something and died for it. Does this mean that if you die for something, it is true?” Does this justify our objection? This is great question. The answer, simply put, is no. There is a big difference in dying for something that you believe because you have heard it from someone else (often called “hear-say”) and dying for something that you believe because you witnessed the events that establish the belief. The difference is in the substance and verification of what each believed. The suicide bombers and others who died for their faith are dying for something that they believe because the have heard it from someone else. This adds no verification to what they believe. It would be like me dying for my faith in Christ’s resurrection. All that this would prove is that I truly did believe that Christ rose from the grave, but it would not verify in any way that he actually did raise from the grave. Why? Because I did not see it. Now if I died a martyrs death saying that I saw Christ die and raise from the grave with my own eyes, that would be a different story. Why? Because it would not verify a belief handed down from someone else, but a belief that I was a first hand witness of. At this point, you only have three options to explain my belief: 1) to say that I died for a lie KNOWING THAT IT WAS A LIE, 2) I was delusional or crazy, or 3) it was the truth. The suicide bombers sincerely believe their religion, but it carries no inherent verification. All we know is that they were sincere in their belief. The disciples on the other hand died for something that they said they were eye witnesses of. This carries no “hear-say” as they say in law, but first hand testimony. It is a completely different story.

 

Here are your three options concerning the Apostles:

 

You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (ridiculous since they gained NOTHING from it).
They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion, many being at different places and different times).
It was true.
 

Your choice . . .

Offline Furball

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2004, 04:11:12 PM »
>


Top 10 Reasons Why Beer Is Better Than Jesus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.

9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.

8. Beer has never caused a major war.

7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.

6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.

5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.

4. You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second Beer.

3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.

2. You can prove you have a Beer.

1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline midnight Target

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2004, 04:20:35 PM »
Quote
You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (ridiculous since they gained NOTHING from it).
They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion, many being at different places and different times).
It was true.


Your choice . . .


You forgot choice #3 - Those 12 guys never existed.

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2004, 04:21:23 PM »
Quote
Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.


really? i figure the hangover certain brands give is torture enough...

Offline lazs2

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2004, 04:27:35 PM »
"With that, the loop is closed and there is no need for logic, facts, or any other thought process which, if it doesn't help their beliefs, must therefor be tools of the devil. A religious person is someone who can have the answers without the baggage of truth."

geeze chairboy... and you were upset with me for pointing out that someones car looked like a jukebox...  glad you're not making fun of anything of import to people.

lazs

Offline VFJACKAL

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Well....
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2004, 04:33:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
You forgot choice #3 - Those 12 guys never existed.


Actually "Being True was 3rd choice.....But...I'll let ya make that #4 "THey Never Exsisted" if ya like MT:rolleyes:

Offline Otto

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2004, 04:49:07 PM »
I'm and Agnostic.  I'd like to think there's a 'Higher Power' in the Universe but I can't accept it on faith alone.  What I don't understand is people who are not religious always 'poking sticks' at people who are.  Religion is a matter of Faith.  Do you really believe that someone is going to change there 'Faith' because of YOU?    In addition, what's the point?  What is so important about people giving up there faith in a God because of what you think?   I'll never understand this...

   There is some 'downside' to religion but mostly it's good for everyone.  It's always been a 'social glue' that keep societies together and provides a Code of Conduct for their members.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2004, 05:41:16 PM by Otto »

Offline MrCoffee

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2004, 04:51:44 PM »
Well some good arguments against religion and god are Charles Darwin and Thomas H. Huxley. They can convince you that god doesnt exist. I personally believe that god does exist.

Offline AKIron

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2004, 04:54:00 PM »
No sweat Lazs, Christians expect that many non-believers will reject the gospel. Many of us once rejected it as well. To acknowledge that Christ is the son of God and that he died for our sins calls for repentance and willingness to give up what God calls sin.

For many it may always be easy to reject that "still small voice". However, I challenge anyone to truly listen for that voice before rejecting the gospel for intellectual or any other reason.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2004, 04:55:35 PM »
Lazs2, I guess I don't like it when people pee on me and try to tell me its raining, and that's exactly what religious folk do.

"My god finds your behavior sinful, so we will outlaw it.  It's for your own good."

"My god says that you must not do that thing you are doing, so my people will come together and harass or kill you to stop you from doing it.  It's for your own good."

"God tells me that I must convert everyone, and it doesn't matter if it's a conversion at the church or conversion at the sword.  It may kill you, but...  it's for your own good."
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline LAWCobra

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Christianity Debunked???
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2004, 04:58:56 PM »
The Lord Jesus is my saviour and I am his humble child.
I take comfort in knowing this and I feel pitty for those who don't.