Author Topic: Bin Laden offers truce to European States  (Read 4971 times)

Offline Maniac

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 04:47:27 AM »
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You must have a really odd definition of pacifist.


My defenition of a Pacifist : A man sitting in the safety of his home screaming for war, but would never take part in the war "first hand".
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Offline -dead-

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 04:47:57 AM »
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Originally posted by Arlo
Interesting opinion, even if it's wrong. The U.S. acted on U.N. mandates that were written in response to Iraq failing to comply with previous mandates that were enacted (the initial measures) at the time of cessation of hostilites during Desert Storm. You can't spin away that paper trail. But you can try. ;)
The requirement for any UN sanctioned invasion is a resolution sanctioning said invasion to be passed by the UN Security council. With no such sanction for the Invasion of Iraq, you can't use the UN as justification. You'll have to look elsewhere for the casus belli: the UN dog won't hunt.
Bellyache all you like about the UN - right or wrong, it did not sanction the invasion at all.

The best you can get off the UN is 1441's provision of "serious consequences" a threat tempered with the reaffirmation of "the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States".

Both the US and UK ambassadors to the UN stressed that these "serious consequences" were not an automatic validation of an invasion:
"As we have said on numerous occasions to Council members, this Resolution contains no “hidden triggers” and no “automaticity” with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA, or a member state, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12. " - Ambassador John Negroponte of the US.
"We heard loud and clear during the negotiations the concerns about “automaticity” and “hidden triggers” – the concern that on a decision so crucial we should not rush into military action; that on a decision so crucial any Iraqi violations should be discussed by the Council. Let me be equally clear in response, as a co-sponsor with the United States of the text we have adopted. There is no "automaticity" in this Resolution. If there is a further Iraqi breach of its disarmament obligations, the matter will return to the Council for discussion as required in Operational Paragraph 12." - Ambassador Jeremy Greenstock of the UK

The other veto powers make it equally clear:

The French said this: " in the event the executive president of the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission or the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency reports to the Security Council that Iraq has not complied with its obligations, the Council would meet immediately to assess the seriousness of these violations and draw the consequences. France welcomes the fact that all ambiguity on this point and all element of automaticity have disappeared from the resolution."

The Russians: "At all stages of this work, we were guided by the need to direct the process of a settlement onto a diplomatic and political path and not to allow a military scenario. As a result of intensive negotiations, the resolution just adopted contains no provisions for the automatic use of force. It is important that the resolution’s sponsors today officially confirmed in the Security Council that that is their understanding and that they provided an assurance that the resolution’s objective is the implementation of existing Security Council decisions concerning Iraq through inspections by the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). That is an objective shared by all members of the Council.
In that connection, it is of fundamental importance that the resolution clearly confirms that all Members of the United Nations respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq and of all other States in the region. It is also confirms the need for full implementation of resolution 1382 (2001), whereby members of the Security Council undertook to seek a comprehensive settlement of the Iraq problem, which assumes the lifting of sanctions. "

The Chinese: "As the co-sponsors pointed out during their statements, the purpose of the resolution is to achieve the disarmament of Iraq through effective inspections. The text no longer includes automaticity for authorizing the use of force. According to the resolution, only upon receipt of a report by UNMOVIC and the IAEA on Iraq’s non-compliance and failure to cooperate fully in the implementation of this resolution shall the Security Council consider the situation and take a position.
We are also pleased to note that at the request of many members, including China, the resolution has now included some important elements, e.g.'reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighboring States,' ”

It's also worth noting that all further Security Council Resolutions on Iraq prior to the invasion (1443, 1447, 1454) reiterate "the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq" but none mention the "serious consequences".
And finally, the US,UK & Spain did draw up this resolution proposal: http://www.un.org/News/dh/iraq/res-...ar03-en-rev.pdf but it was withdrawn due to lack of support.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Nilsen

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2004, 04:52:17 AM »
who said that Hortlund? the little voices in your head?

time for your medication again Hortlund... you really should get some kind of timetable setup by your "doctor"

Offline Hortlund

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2004, 04:52:20 AM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
My defenition of a Pacifist : A man sitting in the safety of his home screaming for war, but would never take part in the war "first hand".


Well, I'm in the national guards, so if war comes I know what I'll be doing. How about yourself?

Offline _Schadenfreude_

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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2004, 04:54:44 AM »
Hortlund your right wing leanings have so warped your brain that you seem unable to consider any opinion that does not fall into step with your preconceived ideas.

The writer in the piece posted was merely reiterating an old opinion that whilst old men start wars - from the safety of their desks, it is young men and in this case woman who actually go and do the fighting and dying.

The Right Wing wish everyone to believe that the world is a better and safer place due to the current Iraq war and therefore the sacrifice and the loss of good men and women and the loss for their families is somehow "worth it"

Others however think it is a waste of people and lives and money, it is a fraud driven by greed and revenge by incompetent men.

If America remains in Iraq for another 3 to 5 years and it becomes another Lebanon - it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Offline Maniac

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2004, 04:56:01 AM »
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Well, I'm in the national guards, so if war comes I know what I'll be doing. How about yourself?


Ya, If Norway, Denmark or Finland decides to invade us then i will be defending against the invasion... But i aint in the National Guard...

But im not talking about that... Djust because your in the National Guard it dont make you any less pacifist in terms of the Iraq war...

You djust sit there and make rabid comments about the Iraq war in the safety of your home...

Im sure there are ways that would enable you to fight in Iraq...
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Offline straffo

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2004, 04:57:26 AM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
My defenition of a Pacifist : A man sitting in the safety of his home screaming for war, but would never take part in the war "first hand".


Actually this is the definition of a retard I think :)

Offline Thrawn

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2004, 04:57:28 AM »
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Originally posted by Arlo
Interesting opinion, even if it's wrong.


No you are wrong and apparently haven't actually even read any of the applicable Security Council resolutions.

Quote
The U.S. acted on U.N. mandates that were written in response to Iraq failing to comply with previous mandates that were enacted (the initial measures) at the time of cessation of hostilites during Desert Storm. You can't spin away that paper trail. But you can try. ;)



A paper trail which you conveniently fail to provide.  Can you please tell me exactly which UN Security Council resolution the US is acting under?  

Here is some of the text on the last resolution adopted by the Security Council regarding Iraq (1441).  


"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States,"


"2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,863569,00.html


Bear in mind that this resolution was written by the US government and the US government voted for it's implementation.

So the UN Security Council reaffirmed the sovereignty of Iraq, and then the US invaded it.

And although Iraq was in material breach the Security Council decided to "afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council;",  following the system as sponsored by the US.  Then the US decided to ignore it's own system and invade Iraq.

The US is itself in violation of UN resolutions, the same crime it accused Iraq of.  And is also in violation of the UN Charter.


Arlo, next time you want to tell people they are wrong regarding UN "mandates" it might help if you had a passing knowledge of them.

Offline Hortlund

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2004, 05:01:28 AM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
My defenition of a Pacifist : A man sitting in the safety of his home screaming for war [...]


Oh and by the way...back to school...

Offline Holden McGroin

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 05:04:47 AM »
Nilsen

All I was drawing was a parallel to relative troop strength of the two conflicts.  The commitment of smaller contingents is greatly appreciated and should not be overlooked.  

I was not attempting to comment on the righteousness of either conflict.
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Offline Maniac

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2004, 05:13:19 AM »
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Oh and by the way...back to school...


Nice comeback, pacifist.
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Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2004, 05:15:06 AM »
Well atleast HE has been educated Hortlund...

I know Holden....

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2004, 05:22:55 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Just to put the numbers in perspective, of the foreign troops in country the USA provided 75% of the troop strength in a 15 nation strong coalition.  Americans suffered 94% of the deaths, and 89% of the wounded of the coalition.





Wait... that was Korea, 1950-53.  Seems like Americans are used to carring the load.


Obviously that wopuld make Great Leader Kim Il Sung and of course by extension Dear Leader Kim Jong Il a modern day freedom fighter battling aginst yankee imperilaism!!!

Glory to all fredome fighters battling evil yankee unilateralist agression!!!  NO WAR FOR KOREAN CABBAGE!!!



Thjanksfully cooler heads will prevail this novermber as we know who all the worlds freedom fighters prefer in the election.

Is is any surprse then that Kim Jong Il has said that he supports Jong Ke-Rhee for the premiership, I mean presidency this year?

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2004, 05:27:04 AM »
Hey Grun!!


"The Iran hostage crisis was a 444-day period during which the new government of Iran held hostage 66 citizens of the United States. It caused the President of the United States to lose his re-election attempt, and punctuated the first fundamentalist Islamic revolution of modern times. It began on November 4, 1979 and lasted until January 20, 1981."

As you know during that period Carter lost a Presidential election to Regan.

So terrorists take American hostages, and the Americans vote for the other guy.  Now using the logic you applied to Spain what do you make of that?  :rolleyes:

Offline Ping

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Bin Laden offers truce to European States
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2004, 05:30:41 AM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
My defenition of a Pacifist : A man sitting in the safety of his home screaming for war, but would never take part in the war "first hand".


That would be a warmonger.
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