Author Topic: Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?  (Read 1507 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2004, 12:26:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
They could alaways set up tolls on the roads going into and out of the reservations.

They oughta tax religious orgs as well. The Jesus business is booming.


Sure than tax the NAACP ACLU NRA and any other NON profit organization.  Weather you have a problem with religion or not alot of titheing collect does do some good for people.

Offline lazs2

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2004, 12:31:29 PM »
I don't believe that I am missing the point.  If they are immune from our laws then why can't they have prostitution or human sacrafice either?  If they are not our country then how can we allow  them to leave there without a passport or shouldn't they have a visa to llive or work off the reservation?  why do they have to comply with other federal and state laws like EPA smog etc?  

I say that either let them continue but not allow Americans to participate or... make them follow our laws .   I can think of no treaty that allows them to build casinos, tax free or otherwise.

If we can't tax em then put a tarrif on all goods shipped to their land... say 200 bucks a bottle tax on booze that is sent there...   EPA fees of several thousand a day...  environmental impact fees for out of country users...  we can do pretty much what we want if they are not protected as U.S. land.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2004, 12:32:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Sure than tax the NAACP ACLU NRA and any other NON profit organization.

To be a devils advocate, how do you figure religions being non-profit?  The catholic church owns more real estate worldwide then almost any non-government entity, and almost all the religions invest their money in various markets to 'ensure the future of the church'.  

Add to this Bishops and other high muckety mucks in various churches being driven around in limos, quartered in luxurious homes/castles, and so on....  and that vow of poverty suddenly seems a little....  sparse.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline gofaster

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2004, 12:33:57 PM »
Federal vs state, state loses.  Indian reservation is federal land, federal jurisdiction.  Gambling is not illegal under federal law (which is why Nevada can have its gambling in Vegas).

Offline Batz

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2004, 12:36:52 PM »
Its a racket and you know it, turn on TBN any time and you see it.

I don't care what you do with 10% of your gross income but the money collector, ie "Church" ought to be taxed on its "income".

If it makes you feel better to include secular non-profit orgs then what the hell tax them to.

Fence off the reservation and charge the injuns/gamblers to come and go via tolls.

Offline Chairboy

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2004, 12:41:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I don't believe that I am missing the point.  If they are immune from our laws then why can't they have prostitution or human sacrafice either?  If they are not our country then how can we allow  them to leave there without a passport or shouldn't they have a visa to llive or work off the reservation?  why do they have to comply with other federal and state laws like EPA smog etc?  

I say that either let them continue but not allow Americans to participate or... make them follow our laws .   I can think of no treaty that allows them to build casinos, tax free or otherwise.

If we can't tax em then put a tarrif on all goods shipped to their land... say 200 bucks a bottle tax on booze that is sent there...   EPA fees of several thousand a day...  environmental impact fees for out of country users...  we can do pretty much what we want if they are not protected as U.S. land.

lazs

Ah, you just proved that you're missing the point.  The native american reservations are governed under statutes similar to that of conquered nations.  In the interest of peace and goodwill, they are allowed to dot the I's and cross the T's of their own laws, but that goodwill only goes as far as it needs to in the interest of the US federal government.  The feds can impose EPA mandates on them if they choose, as well as give the FBI operating jurisdiction in the reservations, but they usually keep a lower profile then what you advocate so that the native americans won't have a reason to cost them money.

Your comment makes little sense because you seem to think that we're still at war with the american indian nation.  That's not true, the US won that war over a hundred years ago.  There's no harm in leaving them where they are now, as far as federal strategy dictates, and giving them their own leeway in local governance is a cheap way to keep order.

Let's say that the US adopts your jack-booted thuggery approach for some reason....  first thing that happens, you suddenly create a hostile nation WITHIN THE BORDERS of the United States.  Suddenly, you, with the miracle of a swipe of a pen, create your own private Palestinian state with thousands of angry, poor people.

The reservations become safe havens for fleeing criminals as the locals no longer have any reason to respect and like the USA.  You now have a bunch of smart people with access to the resources of our country deciding whether or not they should start making bombs and shooting planes out of the sky.  Not only that, but you've created an enemy that needs to be watched constantly, at the expense of massive new FBI and military presence.  Do you think the expense of putting hundreds of federals around their massive borders to deal with insurgents is worth the money you get by destroying their livelihood?

Do us all a favor and reconnect with reality.  Just because we CAN do something doesn't always mean we should.  Also, sometimes it costs more money then you get when you pull hair brained schemes like you proposed.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gunslinger

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2004, 12:41:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
To be a devils advocate, how do you figure religions being non-profit?  The catholic church owns more real estate worldwide then almost any non-government entity, and almost all the religions invest their money in various markets to 'ensure the future of the church'.  

Add to this Bishops and other high muckety mucks in various churches being driven around in limos, quartered in luxurious homes/castles, and so on....  and that vow of poverty suddenly seems a little....  sparse.


You make a good point....but this also applies to alot of other NON profit organiziations....I'm sure if you look at the guy/girl that runs the Salvation Army, NAACP, ACLU ect.  their CEOs (or equivilent directer) probably make sizable saleries.

And not to pick on catholics but I think they have alot more pagentry and glitz than other denomintaion (personal opinion) but is a big rich catholic church really comparable to a small one that runs a soup kitchen with its tithes?

My wife and I got married at a homeless shelter in Las Vegas (LITERALLY)  It was a church that ran a homeless shelter...in order to fund the shelter they performed wedding ceramonies.

I would totally agree that a religious organization should be taxed if their procedes led to actual profit....but most of their money gets reinvested into the church itself and used for other missions around the world.

Quote
Its a racket and you know it, turn on TBN any time and you see it.

I don't care what you do with 10% of your gross income but the money collector, ie "Church" ought to be taxed on its "income".

If it makes you feel better to include secular non-profit orgs then what the hell tax them to.

Fence off the reservation and charge the injuns/gamblers to come and go via tolls.


So you are saying that what you saw on TV means that all church/religions are like that??????

I saw spiderman last night but that doesnt make me think that there really is a guy in a red and blue suit that was bitten by a spider and now has extrahuman abilities.....

NON profit organizations are not taxed....if you say start taxing ALL of them than sure that's fair.....if your saying Religion is a racket...well 1 that offends me and 2 you are just picking on religion.  You cant just pick on one thing cause you dont like it and you cant compare all churches to TBN.  That's like saying I saw a black guy on MTV the other night acting like a thug so they all must act that way
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 12:48:26 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Batz

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2004, 12:52:06 PM »
Well as a Catholic you just offended me.

You can have your snake handling, speaking in tongues, slap on the head heal me quacks. I will stick with the man in the pointy hat.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 01:29:58 PM by Batz »

Offline Chairboy

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2004, 12:56:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
You make a good point....but this also applies to alot of other NON profit organiziations....I'm sure if you look at the guy/girl that runs the Salvation Army, NAACP, ACLU ect.  their CEOs (or equivilent directer) probably make sizable saleries.

Good point.  I'll agree that consistency should be the name of the game.  One thing you mention later in your post is that the churches usually reinvest their money in themselves.  Isn't that the same as what a corporation does?  Most businesses reinvest most of their money into themselves, but they still get taxed on their gross income, no matter whether they have stockholder being paid dividends or not.

My concern is that in our country, we have been programmed to accept that churches must be tax free because that is The Word Of God.  My hope is that the privileges they enjoy will receive the same scrutiny as the businesses in the name of fairness and that each case might be handled independantly.  Painting all religious organizations with a tax free brush seems shortsighted.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lazs2

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2004, 01:02:45 PM »
chairboy... hairbrained?   many would call letting a seperate nation have casinos within the boundries of states that don't allow em as being hairbrained.   Nevada has no state laws against casinos so there is no conflict.

Hostile nation within our nations borders?  Now who is being "hairbrained"?   Nothing hostile about it.   California or the feds simply say that you will pay extra.    California could say that no one is allowed to enter Indian land.

It is a matter of  degree of course... at what point do you do something to stop it?  Perhaps gambling is fine with you but... apparently it is not fine with the state of California (so far as casinos) or it would not be illegal... so you "look the other way" because.. because what ? not a big enough deal?   I say that it is to a lot of folks...  Perhaps prostitution will be the degree that you are oppossed to..  at that point what solution would you offer?  

Regardless it is draining income, causing hardship (if gambling does cause hardship) and it is not paying it's way in taxes.  

The state or federal governments have never had a problem with pushing around countries that are opperating under our good graces... same for here.   we could shut em down or ask em for taxes in a heartbeat and they would have no choice but to comply.  

The state of California could do this and the government would stay out of it.  Do you thing the government wants to go against California on the side of casinos?   There would be no "hostile nation" involved... they would take the advise of the itallians that  are running their "indian" casinos and pay like good little citizens.

lazs

Offline gofaster

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2004, 01:12:03 PM »
Just what we need; more fuel for the American Indian Movement.  Next thing you know, Leonard Peltier will be a martyr.

Offline Chairboy

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2004, 01:23:10 PM »
I have to say I sure am glad Lazs2 is safely limited to ranting on the boards and not in any position of power.  

Our country is better off and safer as a result.

edit: the same can probably be safely said for me too.  :D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 01:25:58 PM by Chairboy »
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Offline Curval

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2004, 02:01:00 PM »
Yea, stick it to the "red man".  California's economy is in the toilet through no fault of the Indians, but let's ignore any previous agreements and tax the heck out of them to solve a small part of the problem.

Sweet.

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Offline muckmaw

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2004, 02:09:11 PM »
Alright, so if they are sovereign countries, let me be the first to invite Canada to come and annex them.

I mean, if they're not part of the USA, we're not going to defend them, right?

NO WAR FOR SLOT MACHINES!!!!

SITTING BULL IS HITLER!!

Offline lazs2

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Should Cali Tax the Indian Casinos?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2004, 02:23:01 PM »
stick it to the red man?  now that is funny as heck to me...  they will still make billions for their itallian bosses..

Don't make a big deal out of it... if we taxed their shady casinos they would pay in a heartbeat.... We are giving them a HUGE thing here... we just want our cut of their vice for profit.

Is not a big deal... just like any other casino they are using state resources to run... they should be taxed by the state or else no casino should be.  Why should I pay for resources and infrastructure to run their casinos?

We are not talking about church bingo here folks... we are talking about big time gambling and all the problems that creates.   Gambling is a major vice and costs all of us money.  

I also believe that any income that goes to people from churches should be taxed....

lazs