Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by lada
LOL Udie ok

Scandal about this is fact that red cross pointed on this problems several times last year.

Nothing has change until pictures become available.

wrong.....the investigation started long before any pics were made public

Attitude of US`s ministry of defence until it become public is Scandal.

wtf is a ministry of defence??? if you're freferring to the DOD they did everything by the book

For example in past 2 years 4 or 5 soldiers and one psychologist were charged for abusing of younger male soldiers in President`s palace.
Simply older soldiers raped younger soldiers and when they went cry to psychologist, he raped them too. It happen instead of guarding president  

We have kind of hot folk over here

so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to......I still dont see how this is a scandel.....and WTF are you talking about?????

We are there to "liberate" the people from a man that habitually used torture and degradation. It's hard to hold on to the mantle of righteousness while doing the same thing.

but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone.  This is an isolated incident  The difference is the people who did this will be punished.  So yes mantle of righteousness still applies.

The we're investigating it, doesn't negate the fact that it has compromised our credibility.

Our credibility is damaged because the truth is not being reported and people are turning this into a "scandel" to further their political agendas

[lada]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
wrong.....the investigation started long before any pics were made public

post a link please

so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to......I still dont see how this is a scandel.....and WTF are you talking about?????

no from 100 man 5 were abused, that makes it 5%
go and learn count before you make you look silly

 

but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone.  This is an isolated incident  The difference is the people who did this will be punished.  So yes mantle of righteousness still applies.

wow so it never ever happen in your army before ?
or it were never public ?
I guess its pure luck it happen in Iraq and Afghanistan right now at once.
 

Our credibility is damaged because the truth is not being reported and people are turning this into a "scandel" to further their political agendas [/B]

your credibility can not go lower since horrible WMD has been so well hidden by SH

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone.  This is an isolated incident

You don't know this. In any case, it doesn't matter what you believe. What the people of Iraq believe is the issue.

We must prove that this is indeed an isolated incident and then we must ensure that Iraqi people believe that it will never happen again.

It's an uphill climb. As we used to say in the nav, "one 'aw-shucks' cancels many attaboys."

[Red Tail 444]

I'll just throw this out there...

for the soldiers that may have executed or killed prisoners (there are currently a number of mysterious deaths being investigated as well), is the death penalty appropriate?

And no, I am not making any political statement, I am not in the military, so I am not up to speed on the UCoMJ.

[airguard]

Seems like gunslinger(or others) dont understand how important this is ?

If USA did have no reason for WMD, (as it seems like now) then why go on the same godamed line Saddam Hussein did with his fellow citizens.
This only cause hate from the people youre trying to "help"
It will not work at all.

Gunslinger do you really wanna give away youre upper hand ?

It was known 4 months ago in your own department of defence that somthing was wrong, and I can only guess that it was the pictures they was talking about.

They shoulda done somthing about it months ago, not after the public seen it.

In my world its called ****ty leadership or just plain lies.

[Gunslinger]

I do understand.  What you dont understand are people are blowing this issue out of the water just to persue thier own political agendas.

WTF should have been done differently?

Idealy this shouldnt have happend but truth be told there is NO scandel here.  THE ARMY DID EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK ONCE THE ABUSE HAS BEEN REPORTED.

Yes I understand that this can cause a loss of credibility with the iraqis......WHAT ELSE CAN THE US DO?????

At least there is alegaitions and a trial....did they (iraq) have that befor?  NO

Lada....go and learn to read befor you tell me to count.

I said SOLDIERS.....there's roughly 150,000 of them over there.  If you look at the percentage that caused this mess its somthing around the number I gave you.

so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to

didnt say anything about prisoners.

post a link....do a search but here you go

Jan. 6, 2004: The U.S. Army discharges three reservists and ordered them to forfeit two months' salary for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq." — Associated Press, Jan. 6, 2004

Jan. 13, 2004: A soldier of the 800th Military Police Brigade at Abu Ghraib reports allegations through chain of command.

Jan. 14, 2004: Combined Joint Task Force-7 criminal investigation is initiated

Jan. 16, 2004: U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt holds briefing on criminal investigation. CENTCOM issues press release to publicly acknowledge the investigation.

Jan. 17, 2004: Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, commander of 800th Military Police Brigade, is formally admonished and suspended from her duties in writing by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez regarding the "serious deficiencies in her Brigade." [Taguba Report, pg. 44]. Sanchez called the recent detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib the most recent example of poor leadership that "permeates the Brigade." — Taguba Report

Jan. 19, 2004: Sanchez requests senior level investigation of procedures at the prison.

Jan. 24, 2004: Gen. John Abizaid directs the Coalition Forces Land Component Command to conduct the investigation requested by Sanchez.
 

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/iraqi_prisoner_abuse_timeline-2.html

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
I do understand.  What you dont understand are people are blowing this issue out of the water just to persue thier own political agendas.

WTF should have been done differently?

Idealy this shouldnt have happend but truth be told there is NO scandel here.  THE ARMY DID EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK ONCE THE ABUSE HAS BEEN REPORTED.

Yes I understand that this can cause a loss of credibility with the iraqis......WHAT ELSE CAN THE US DO?????

At least there is alegaitions and a trial....did they (iraq) have that befor?  NO

Lada....go and learn to read befor you tell me to count.

I said SOLDIERS.....there's roughly 150,000 of them over there.  If you look at the percentage that caused this mess its somthing around the number I gave you.

 

didnt say anything about prisoners.

post a link....do a search but here you go

 
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/iraqi_prisoner_abuse_timeline-2.html

That old saying about the forest and the trees comes to mind.

Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe you just don't want to get it.

It means f*** all who did what by the book, what the percentages are or the fact that the vast majority of U.S. and Coalition troops conduct themselves appropriately and within the law.  All that matters is that a population has seen their occupiers beating and degrading their fellow citizens.  They will not give a rats bellybutton that some 19 year reservist is put on trial....they will not give a rats bellybutton that GWB and Rumsfeld are sorry about it....they will quickly forget all the good that has been done when they recall the images of humiliation and torture.

When you understand that the "truth" and the "facts" and saying "I'm sorry" mean f*** all in winning hearts and minds you will appreciate what a disaster this could be.

[Raubvogel]

I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.

Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.

[airguard]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.

Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.

youre just a bit tit arrogant ?

Operating in the world (as a police) can give you big trubble if you dont act like it, but if you do you can do alot.
If the US/UK cant get the Iraqi's on their side they have a huge problem.

you seems to forget about a huge point here.
It is not that easy as you say : telling you how your country should operate, and for sure nobody like what they seen so far.

[Eagler]

IMO Yes, very happy with him and this admin, hoping for 4 more years of the same - thanks for asking

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.

Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.

Let's be clear about a couple of things:

1.  A prison in Iraq is not "your country".
2.  I do have a vested interest, as do a number of other foreigners whose citizens serve in Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.  To the extent that what has happened makes life more difficult or dangerous for Canadian soldiers in Kabul.  

You might remember Kabul....Afghanistan...fighti ng the war on terror before getting distracted elsewhere, where at least these "foreigners" contributed 2,000 + troops to free up U.S. forces for the little adventure in the Gulf.

[Duedel]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.

Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.

If ur country tries to play world police than we should have the right to tell you our opinion about it.

[Gunslinger]

I love this attitude.....even though this is not a widespread problem....even though this was reported to the press and an ivestigation started.....even though prisoner abuse is not uncommon on the battlefield or conflict zone....even though these iraqi prisoners are all still alive and breathing....even though those that committed evil acts will be punished...........ITS STILL A SCANDEL

I guess according to some on this baord we should just pack up and leave Iraq to anoarchy cause a few guys were abused.

[Duedel]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
I love this attitude.....even though this is not a widespread problem....even though this was reported to the press and an ivestigation started.....even though prisoner abuse is not uncommon on the battlefield or conflict zone....even though these iraqi prisoners are all still alive and breathing....even though those that committed evil acts will be punished...........ITS STILL A SCANDEL

I guess according to some on this baord we should just pack up and leave Iraq to anoarchy cause a few guys were abused.

I'm not sure if u really realize the importance. There are many islamic people that look at the USA as an occupying force. They dont see the USA as a liberator and now this. Per example for a moslem to undress oneself in front of a woman is a very bad sin. No everyone can see it in the TV how the occupying forces not only put the prisoners down but rather show no respect for the whole religion and its not a matter of a few idiotic soldiers. Its seams to be a matter of ur whole government (the british included).
Its to late to leave Iraq but a better planned after war era would have prevented ur country from many problems. The USA is acting like a like a bull in a china shop.

[Staga]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
...some have accused me of being pretty sick, and I have my evil moments.

Sometimes getting into a good, old fashion fist-fight was really satisfying; that adrenaline rush when you really did taste blood in your mouth was better than any drugs.
I OD'd once (2vs1) and ended up to hospital with crushed shoulder (clavicula); that was quite crappy trip