Author Topic: Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?  (Read 1528 times)

Offline Wolf14

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 858
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2004, 09:00:54 PM »
There is a difference between cruel punishment and torture.

Why is that those who are crying the most over cruel punishment cried the least about the torture Sadaam was committing?  If burying people alive isnt a form of torture I dont know what is.


These guys are prisoners. They may have information that can be vital to the war effort. I dont think they are just gonna up and tell us everything we need to know by offering them donuts and coffee. They are gonna need a lil persuasion. They need to be shown that if they do good and answer all questions without defiance the cruel punishment will stop. Thay are not getting gassed or beat within 2 inches of their life. yet.

In all honesty they should be treated the same way they would treat our soldiers. Even with whats surfaced in the media at this point in time they are still being treated better than our guys would be treated.

Is Rumsfeld doing a good job? I think so. The man has to account for more information than any one person can inturprate in one day. Why should he be held accountable if there was a breakdown in the chain before him? You cant solve a problem that you dont know about. Now if he did know and delagted to someone else in my mind he still took action to fix the problem. Out of all the things he has to do I cant see him stopping everything he is ding to focus on one problem. Thats what the subordinates are for.

He's one man with a very big plate of food that cant all be eaten in one day.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2004, 09:05:17 PM »
Exactly.....Thanks wolf.  

The same people that are crying right now are completly silent about:  The former iraqi regiem, Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.

The list goes on and on.....What's defined as torture to some people would look at these prisoners tratment as exemplary

EDIT:

These prisoners treatment may not meet American standards BUT that IS/HAS been delt with.  I dont see what all the CONTINUING fuss is about

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2004, 09:20:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
The same people that are crying right now are completly silent about:  The former iraqi regiem, Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.


And the people who were crying about the former Iraqi regime were completely silent about Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.

There's a point to be made here, but I can't be arsed to figure out what it is.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2004, 09:34:45 PM »
What has happened to unarmed flexcuffed iraqi detainees, in their own country, at the hands of my fellow americans -is extremely regrettable and shamefull to the hilt.  In my opinion this action has threatened the mission far more than the militant insurgents ever could have hoped to do.  Might as well pack it up and bring the show home if this crap doesnt get fixed yesterday.
Rummy did a fabulous job after 9/11 and up to and during the opening drive into iraq but his handling of affairs in the occupation has been dismal and getting worse.  Yes, it is now an occupation, and although not necessarily a bad thing, when the people want and need a stabilizing occupation to gather themselves up with, what we have become is unwanted and detested and after looking at too many photos I dont blame them.

I personally think rummer should consider very seriously resigning.
Very seriously.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2004, 09:48:43 PM »
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2004, 09:53:46 PM »
I think we should wait till June 30th.  Give Iraq back to Iraqies which has allways been Americas mission in the first place.

Do you really think IRAQI Oil is gonna make a difference in the world market or our price at the pump.

Do you really think we want to stay their.

Do you really think that Iraq is worse off now.....at least now they have the freedom to say how much they like/disslike somthing w/o having to be ferried off to a torture chamber without ever being seen again.

All of THOSE iraqi prisoners are still breathing.

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2004, 10:23:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger


All this goes to show for me is that the US is not perfect.  The US has done alot of good things in Iraq:

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.



"While the email appears to provide some truthful information, it is replete with misinformation. I don't have time to check each representation in the email, but here's an overview:


- Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

This is interesting. A lot of kids have been immunized in Iraq. In fact, last year the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) "25 million doses of vaccines to Iraq to help prevent the spread of polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, and tuberculosis -- considered the main killers of children in developing countries."
  • At the time, UNICEF spokesman Gordon Weiss explained that the children of Iraq would need several stages of repeated immunizations for the immunizations to be effective:


"Iraq is in a particularly delicate stage at the moment -- postwar, with a lot of the health system having broken down and a lot of the water systems having broken down, as well. So children are more than ever this year vulnerable to water-borne diseases. Usually you don't vaccinate just once, you vaccinate a number of times in order to have the vaccinations work."


Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"USAID has partnered with UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO) and Abt Associates to support health program in Iraq. Since the end of the war, USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age."

Hmmm. UNICEF said that 3 1/2 million Iraqi children were vaccinated last year. Does this mean that the vaccination program is not being pursued as much as last year? I don't know.

I also don't know where the 400,000 number came from. Last year, Iraq had approximately 4.2 million children in Iraq under the age of five. If fewer than 10% of young Iraqi children have up-to-date immunizations out of the millions who have been on an immunization schedule and are exposed, that would seem to be a serious failure.

That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing.


- The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Nonsense. First, there's nothing in the Fact Sheet about oil. Iraq is presently exporting approximately 1.9 million barrels of oil a day, or under 60 million barrels per month. And that's going to be difficult to maintain. You probably already know that insurgent attacks have been limiting the exports.
  • In August -- the supposed 2 billion barrel month -- Iraq was expecting to export fewer than 1.2 million barrels a day, about 37 million barrels for the month.



- Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.

Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"Iraq has 13 major wastewater facilities. Baghdad's three facilities are currently inoperable and comprise three quarters of the nation's sewage treatment capacity. Raw waste flows directly into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and chemicals has exacerbated the situation and only a few wastewater treatment plants are operational. Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day."

Water does appear to be getting to a lot more people. But, apparently, at a price. A witness from Basra last month claimed:

"The [water] plant seems to be working well . . . This plant is up and going and provides water for a huge number of people. Someone is constructing a new plant to expand so that there is drinking water. I have not met anyone here yet despite the poverty who is not buying drinking water."



- The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.



- 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported
  • :


"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."


Here are the first few paragraphs from the article:

"The stout woman, covered from head to toe in a black abaya, shuffled into the crowded hospital. She went straight to the emergency room and opened her robe to reveal a tiny baby wrapped in fuzzy blankets. The boy had been born prematurely, and the family was afraid he was going to die.

Uday Abdul Ridha took a quick look and shook his head. The physician put his hands on the woman's shoulders in sympathy, but his words were blunt. "I'm sorry," he said. "We cannot help you. We don't have an incubator, and even if we did, we are short on oxygen. Please try another hospital."

Scenes like this one at the Pediatric Teaching Hospital in Baghdad's Iskan neighborhood have become common in Iraq in recent months, as the health care system has been hit by a critical shortage of basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment."


- Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

False. In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections. We installed mayors and administrators of our choosing.



-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
 
I don't know how many Iraqi police are on duty, given widespread desertions.
  • But, we know how many police are in the New York Police Department -- 39,110.
  • According to the 2000 Census, NY City had a population of more than 8 million and covered an area of 320 square miles.
  • According to 1993 estimates, the population of Iraq is about 19,435,000.
  • Iraq is about the size of California, approximately 171,000 square miles.


Though New York, like any other big city, can be dangerous at times, armed insurgents aren't blowing people up daily. New York has about 1 police officer for every 205 residents. Iraq -- which does have armed insurgents blowing people up daily -- has about 1 police officer for every 324 citizens.


- Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

Not true. The Fact Sheet says that before we invaded 1.2 million Iraqis had "subscribed to landline telephone service." As of March 9, 2004, "104,680 subscribers to the Iraqi landline phone network were reconnected." Repairs have reconnected some form of telephone service between Baghdad and 20 other cities.

- Girls are allowed to attend school.

True, but not because of the invasion. Girls were allowed to attend school during Saddam's rule. Between 1997-2000 82% as many girls attended primary school as did boys. 62% as many girls attended high school as did boys, during the same period.


The email is not informative, but disinformation. It's propaganda. While he did not cite any particular rule, Lt. Col. Hapgood said that members of the force are not to take a politically partisan stance in any communications they use in which they identify themselves as members of the force.  Lt. Col. Hapgood, in essence, also said that it was improper for Sgt. Reynolds to attack Senator Kerry in his email.

Thanks to Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos
  • for some fact checking leads.
  • "
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 10:31:16 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2004, 10:27:43 PM »
We can't be bothered with facts. We're winning their hearts and minds!
sand

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2004, 11:03:00 PM »
I just try to keep the big picture in mind. Those responsible for abuse of prisoners must be punished to the maximum extent.

I don't believe that the US armed forces as a whole are corrupt, but it does sicken me that these bad apples have made life much, much more dangerous for all of the others serving in Iraq and abroad. They commited crimes that will endanger American lives, as well as ruin the lives of those they have subjected to this disgusting crime.

On the overall view, I believe Iraq will be a better place with a promising future as a result of US and allied action.

Offline stiehl

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 329
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2004, 11:17:56 PM »

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2004, 11:19:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
"While the email appears to provide some truthful information, it is replete with misinformation. I don't have time to check each representation in the email, but here's an overview:


- Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

This is interesting. A lot of kids have been immunized in Iraq. In fact, last year the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) "25 million doses of vaccines to Iraq to help prevent the spread of polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, and tuberculosis -- considered the main killers of children in developing countries."
  • At the time, UNICEF spokesman Gordon Weiss explained that the children of Iraq would need several stages of repeated immunizations for the immunizations to be effective:


"Iraq is in a particularly delicate stage at the moment -- postwar, with a lot of the health system having broken down and a lot of the water systems having broken down, as well. So children are more than ever this year vulnerable to water-borne diseases. Usually you don't vaccinate just once, you vaccinate a number of times in order to have the vaccinations work."


Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"USAID has partnered with UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO) and Abt Associates to support health program in Iraq. Since the end of the war, USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age."

Hmmm. UNICEF said that 3 1/2 million Iraqi children were vaccinated last year. Does this mean that the vaccination program is not being pursued as much as last year? I don't know.

I also don't know where the 400,000 number came from. Last year, Iraq had approximately 4.2 million children in Iraq under the age of five. If fewer than 10% of young Iraqi children have up-to-date immunizations out of the millions who have been on an immunization schedule and are exposed, that would seem to be a serious failure.

That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing.


- The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Nonsense. First, there's nothing in the Fact Sheet about oil. Iraq is presently exporting approximately 1.9 million barrels of oil a day, or under 60 million barrels per month. And that's going to be difficult to maintain. You probably already know that insurgent attacks have been limiting the exports.
  • In August -- the supposed 2 billion barrel month -- Iraq was expecting to export fewer than 1.2 million barrels a day, about 37 million barrels for the month.



- Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.

Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"Iraq has 13 major wastewater facilities. Baghdad's three facilities are currently inoperable and comprise three quarters of the nation's sewage treatment capacity. Raw waste flows directly into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and chemicals has exacerbated the situation and only a few wastewater treatment plants are operational. Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day."

Water does appear to be getting to a lot more people. But, apparently, at a price. A witness from Basra last month claimed:

"The [water] plant seems to be working well . . . This plant is up and going and provides water for a huge number of people. Someone is constructing a new plant to expand so that there is drinking water. I have not met anyone here yet despite the poverty who is not buying drinking water."



- The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.



- 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported
  • :


"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."


Here are the first few paragraphs from the article:

"The stout woman, covered from head to toe in a black abaya, shuffled into the crowded hospital. She went straight to the emergency room and opened her robe to reveal a tiny baby wrapped in fuzzy blankets. The boy had been born prematurely, and the family was afraid he was going to die.

Uday Abdul Ridha took a quick look and shook his head. The physician put his hands on the woman's shoulders in sympathy, but his words were blunt. "I'm sorry," he said. "We cannot help you. We don't have an incubator, and even if we did, we are short on oxygen. Please try another hospital."

Scenes like this one at the Pediatric Teaching Hospital in Baghdad's Iskan neighborhood have become common in Iraq in recent months, as the health care system has been hit by a critical shortage of basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment."


- Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

False. In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections. We installed mayors and administrators of our choosing.



-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
 
I don't know how many Iraqi police are on duty, given widespread desertions.
  • But, we know how many police are in the New York Police Department -- 39,110.
  • According to the 2000 Census, NY City had a population of more than 8 million and covered an area of 320 square miles.
  • According to 1993 estimates, the population of Iraq is about 19,435,000.
  • Iraq is about the size of California, approximately 171,000 square miles.


Though New York, like any other big city, can be dangerous at times, armed insurgents aren't blowing people up daily. New York has about 1 police officer for every 205 residents. Iraq -- which does have armed insurgents blowing people up daily -- has about 1 police officer for every 324 citizens.


- Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

Not true. The Fact Sheet says that before we invaded 1.2 million Iraqis had "subscribed to landline telephone service." As of March 9, 2004, "104,680 subscribers to the Iraqi landline phone network were reconnected." Repairs have reconnected some form of telephone service between Baghdad and 20 other cities.

- Girls are allowed to attend school.

True, but not because of the invasion. Girls were allowed to attend school during Saddam's rule. Between 1997-2000 82% as many girls attended primary school as did boys. 62% as many girls attended high school as did boys, during the same period.


The email is not informative, but disinformation. It's propaganda. While he did not cite any particular rule, Lt. Col. Hapgood said that members of the force are not to take a politically partisan stance in any communications they use in which they identify themselves as members of the force.  Lt. Col. Hapgood, in essence, also said that it was improper for Sgt. Reynolds to attack Senator Kerry in his email.

Thanks to Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos
  • for some fact checking leads.
  • "
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html

this sounds like propeganda to me.  Got any facts to prove its true

Hell it almost sounds like they should go back to torture chambers and mass graves.  Is there any turth to this "fact sheet"
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 11:25:13 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline _Schadenfreude_

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2004, 11:35:24 PM »
How to lose a war....it's going to be a great book in a couple of years.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2004, 11:55:05 PM »
Its a book your well versed in.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline StabbyTheIcePic

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 566
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2004, 12:11:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I think we should wait till June 30th.  Give Iraq back to Iraqies which has allways been Americas mission in the first place.

Do you really think IRAQI Oil is gonna make a difference in the world market or our price at the pump.

Do you really think we want to stay their.

Do you really think that Iraq is worse off now.....at least now they have the freedom to say how much they like/disslike somthing w/o having to be ferried off to a torture chamber without ever being seen again.

All of THOSE iraqi prisoners are still breathing.


of the 25 pows that have died in the prisons, 2 have been deemed homocides, and 10 more are under investigation.

Offline Gixer

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
Rumsfeld doing a superb job ?
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2004, 01:07:15 AM »
Rumsfeld knew it was bad news and tried to keep it covered up even as it seems from Bush. If the press hadn't got hold of the story doubt Bush ever would of been told or congree and that the abuse would still be going on at that level or more to this day.



...-Gixer