Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004

[Batz]

I agree with about reloading, The long burst form the 88s make getting rounds on target easy like spraying a hose...

I flew a few frames gunning for freeze's 88 while Axis Co.

I can say the RAF that attcked his bombers  flew head on, lead a few hits then reversed and came up dead 6. When this happened our ju88s slowed down and killed many of them.

There was sufficient pressure from the hurricanes to make the bomb drop  miss. Freeze was the only guys in his formation to get bombs on target, the rest missed badly. I even saw bombs landing in the channel some 5 mile away from their target.

ANother thing about the 88 is the pilot damage. With all that glass in the front a good ho of 303s would be enought to kill the pilot, co pilot and / or bombadier / forward gunner....

Its like a force field now.

But you know I kid you...

The LW in AH for BoB has a planeset that is slightly late for the period. Until HT models new planes theres nothing we can do about that.

Have you flown the E4 in AH2, its roll rate has omproved so the E should put up an even better fight...

I just hope one the Victory Conditons in the next BoB takes into account losses. Thsi will give the raf a better option then just flying into the bombers.

It will also give the 109s somethign to do besides fly around, they will need to kill Hurris and spits to win.....

[ramzey]

Hurris pilot have big pressure from HQ to try intercept many ju88 as we can. Thats why we was pushed to repeat attack from back.
Instead of just wait for bombers heading back home

But computer games death in one frame dont mean much and dont affect numbers of planes used in frame secound. So loss of too many planes not need to be consider as loosing strategical resources for future.

Imo is not the way to force LW to destroy all hangars on all airfields in england by establish that as goal for victory.
Body count should be most importand  for score. FIghter plane loss counted as one pilot-plane loss (1 + 1) . ANd bomber lost as 5 crew (points)x 3 + 3 planes. That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)
Plus extra points for LW for destroying ground targets, to make score system balanced and accurate.

Addition to this can be SAR who can save som points for each side.

[ramzey]

btw, if we wil have still only ju88 and lazer guns for them, not much work will left for 109's

i forgot about one more big pain in a@@, framerate
when i dive on ju88 formations and  had fps about 5. Same as during  ruhr scenario. So, when i pick up target and start firing from d400, my wake up was 2k behinde bombers when my fps back to norm

[SOB]

Jordi - Yes We are working on Resuce for RAF Pilots.

Yay!  Finally, killing guys in their chutes will be something more than just a fun past time!  

[Batz]

Artik,

Here's some info on the Stuka during BoB:

At the start of the war in September 1939, the Luftwaffe had:

336 Stukas (serviceable 288).

For the Battle in the West, on May 11, 1940 there were:

414 Stukas (serviceable 345).

By August 1st. for the Battle of Britain the number available was:

327(serviceable 261).

The losses for July had been low with just 12 lost.

Between August 1 and August 18, 47 were lost due to enemy action and 4 more during operations.

The Stukas were withdrawn from the Battle of Britain on August 18, 1940.

Originally the LW tried to draw the RAF out over the Channel by using Stukas to target channel Shipping. Stukas also targeted radar installations etc, but after failing to draw out and destroy the RAF in the air the LW shifted tactics and set about to bomb and destroy RAF airfields in southern and south-east England.

Stuka losses were high but their withdrawal seemed to coincide with the LW change of tactics. Tactics for which the Stuka was completely unsuited for.

[Vladd]

Unit size: I don't think RAF squadrons being 6 planes strong really worked last time. Against 15 Ju88s they were only likely to get a couple of kills at best, although that's quite historical I guess.  What wasn't historical is the losses they suffered in return due to the AH buff gunnery model and the near impossibility of disabling gunners and pilots in the bombers. Six O'clock attacks might not be ideal technique but read many RAF accounts of the battle and it's quite clear this method was used commonly by many pilots without it being a near suicidal approach.

Not much we can do about the latter point. But fewer RAF units overall but with 12 a/c per unit would be a good idea.

[Vladd]

Originally posted by ramzey

Imo is not the way to force LW to destroy all hangars on all airfields in england by establish that as goal for victory.
Body count should be most importand  for score. FIghter plane loss counted as one pilot-plane loss (1 + 1) . ANd bomber lost as 5 crew (points)x 3 + 3 planes. That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)
Plus extra points for LW for destroying ground targets, to make score system balanced and accurate.

Totally, totally agree with this. 109s killing the RAF was the only way the LW could have won the real battle of Britain, scoring in this event should reflect that. Remember, the LW bombers did not close down any RAF base for more than a few hours during the battle, nor were any RAF units grounded at any time due to airfield services damage.

Bombers should be tasked to hit a certain number of targets and get some token bonus points for doing so. But bomber scoring should be much less important than air attrition scoring IMO.

[Batz]

From my experience in the past few scenarios is that there are very few folks who can actually hit their target while under pressure while flying a bomber..

Large grouped targets (like in Big Week) or as was used in AK and the Ruhr "area bombing" (where by X number of bombs need to land inside X space) is by far preferrable to picking off individual structures.

You could end up with 100 divebombing ju88s if they need to hit pinpoint targets

[artik]

What do you think about this:

• Limit the altitude of Ju-88 bombers to 12-15K - to make interseption easier
• Force all gunners as rule tested by CMs/COs wo waste all defence ammo accept of one rear gun.
  CM/CO joins each fromation in flight as gunner and make sure that there are no more bullets in all unrelevant guns.
  

Ramzey - I know that BoB is not BoB without Do-17 however it is not BoB with Ju-88. At least Me110 and Ju87 (even later version) are more relevant then Ju-88.

Ju88 for Spit I/Hurricane I is same as Ar234 for Mustang.
That is why Me-110 and Ju87 IMHO are better in these role.

[Flossy]

Originally posted by artik

• Force all gunners as rule tested by CMs/COs wo waste all defence ammo accept of one rear gun.
  CM/CO joins each fromation in flight as gunner and make sure that there are no more bullets in all unrelevant guns.[/B]

Absolutely not!  We need to be able to use all the guns for firing different angles.  Heck how would you like having to unload cannons from fighters?

[Batz]

Are kidding me? The Ju88 was very much part of BoB...

http://www.battleofbritain.net/

This was proven in a number of mass attacks by Ju88s during the Battle of Britain. One of the most successful of the Luftwaffe raids was and attack on Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight on August 12th 1940. They managed to carry out their attack successfully, then if they were intercepted by Britsh fighters as they were on this occasion, they were able to dive at high speed thus evading contact with the fighters.

You will have plenty of time to get to altitude, the RAF will have radar and ground controllers to vector you in.

12k lol......

Waste all their defensive ammo?  lol

Ju88=Ar234????

The spit and hurri are faster then the ju88 at all altitudes. I dunno who sold you on this but it sounds like you need to do a bit of offline testing...

Dont fear the 88, its not some uber bomber...

[artik]

Originally posted by Flossy
Absolutely not!  We need to be able to use all the guns for firing different angles.  Heck how would you like having to unload cannons from fighters?

Ok lets see......
Each Ju-88 has 4-7.8mm guns firing in rear direction.........
3x4=12 rear guns firing.... vs 8 of Hurri/Spit
The formation has 3x2=6 enignes.... vs 1 of Hurri/Spit
The cosntrucion is much stronger..... then that of Spit/Hurri
Add to it cover of 109Es

So how do you suggest to shoot Ju88 down?
Yes it is possible but it is allmost suicide.....

If defence firepower will be reduced it will give better chances.....

[ramzey]

Artik, its not suicde and not impossible
Just need som practice.

Directing one guns to target made by htc give amazing focus of bomber defence fire. Something whats never happend in RL + high ratio of gun firing and too stable gun platform.
Its very hard but can be done. Its not MA where you need to destroy all planes.

Learn one thing, you cannot say people not use game futures if they can use it. SO you cannot order to anyone fly 70% of max speed same as you cannot order to use one gun;)
Cuz you cannot check it later

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Flossy
There'd better be [level ] bombers in BoB, or I won't be flying in it.  

Helen , can i cal lyou Helga from now?;-)

[artik]

Originally posted by ramzey
you cannot order to use one gun;)
Cuz you cannot check it later

That is the point - you can.

It just requires more work from CM/CO.
The way is simple - CM joins each formation (how many Ju-88 we will have???) and makes sure that they wasted all guns that required - it is quite simple - however requires some work - but it is possible.

It is good option IMO to reduce the defence ability of Ju88.