Author Topic: P-38 Still has Problems  (Read 10010 times)

Offline Murdr

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2004, 07:25:57 PM »
I did not blame the NACA for anything.  That is just silly.  However, I should have structured those two sentences differently, to reflect that there was a delay in gathering wind tunnel data because the speeds were higher than the wind tunnel should make, and because the accuracy of scaling data had not been confirmed yet.  Both, had some trial error diagnosis, because this was unexplored territory.  When you consider that the early devlopment of a/c like the 47, 38, and 51 were out pacing what was understood about aeronautics how can you play a blame game?

To my understanding the "dive flaps" on the xp-51 or technically the A-36? were intended for drag to hold down speeds, and not as dive recovery flaps to cure the tuck under issue.  No doubt they were the reference point.  After all, this was all happening within a reletively small timespan.  The 38s dive problem was discovered in late 41.  Kelly issued a fairly good diagnosis in early 42, and the order for an attack version of the 51 came in early-mid 42.

Your second and third post kind of threw me off that your first post was just to offer reference material.  One document I hadnt seen before was DSIR 23/15088, thanks Ill check it out when I get the chance.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2004, 07:30:08 PM »
I think this thread has reached the point of diminishing returns. No one is going to change their mind. If HTC is even considering doing something about the flaps, then the purpose has been served.

I'm pretty much done here. I'd much rather be flying.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Murdr

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2004, 07:35:30 PM »
You mean you're not staying until the name calling starts, and the thread gets locked?  :D

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2004, 08:08:53 PM »
==============================================
You can thank Crumpp for turning a discussion about P-38 flaps into another bogus blizzard of Bravo Sierra about comparisons between the P-38 and the P-51 or the FW 190. You'll have to ask him what the point of the exercise was.
==============================================


No I didn't.  Your feeling of being "threatenend" by someone new showing up in the thread did.  Sorry I did  not have my P38 Poms-poms out doing a couple of cheers.

I was agreeing with you, Virg on the book. It is biased, full of opinion and short on data.  It does not have the P38 running circles around LW fighters, it does have it stomping the Japanese.

Now check this out.  As a general rule Problems in combat equal deaths on the battlefield.

Plane performance is almost equal so other factors become important.

Compressibility problem = pilots unable to dogfight efficiently = LW has the advantage in winning against P38

Lack of trained pilots = many inexperienced pilots out there or a shortage of pilots = LW has the advantage in winning against P38.

Supply problems = not as many A/C available = less P38's in the sky = Lw has the advantage again.

That make the 8th AF's decision that the LW had the advantages over the P38 easier for you fans to digest?

The 190 test is not MY data.  It's the USAAF's. I posted it to rebuke the claims of P38 superiority and to show that the planes were equal.  The bullet comments are the test conclusions quoted verbatium not mine.  Unlike the pacific theater where the P38 had some dominating characteristics over the Japanese fighters in the European Theater aircraft performance was much closer.  Pilot skill won the day.  The P38 just had too many peripheral problems the at the end of the day.  It was not the premier USAAF fighter.  

I fail to see where my assesment of McGuire's last fight is inaccurate.  He stalled it and spun in attempting to get his nose around to save his wingman.  What else do you want to add? He stalled it cause he didn't advance the throttle's at the same time?  Sure I'll play your silly game.  Ok so He stalled it and spun in an attempt to get his nose around to save his wingman.

Murdr I agee with 90 percent of your assesment of the P38 performance but just have one problem.  If it was such a good Turnfighter then why wasn't that recommended?  Seems to me it was IF in an emergency and you were forced to turn, then the P38 became a turnfighter.  It was not the prefered method for fighting the P38 as opposed to other lower wingloaded fighters like the Zeke or the spit whose primary method of fighting was angles.  Least that is how interpreted the P38 bulletins from the USAAF/Lockheed.

As for me being a "Luftwhiner", well obviously you folks don't drop in the LW threads.  I will say this, Just like the book "Fork Tailed Devil" this thread has been long on "Bravo Sierra" and short on facts/data.

Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2004, 08:42:12 PM »
Your presence threatens no one. Especially not me.

It was YOU who began the pointless tirade about the P-38 being replaced by superior planes. So, yes, in fact it was you that turned the thread into a plane vs plane comparison. It was you that compared the P-38 to other planes, not someone else.

Don't blame me for your inadequacies, it was you who started the comparisons, go back and look at the thread.

The P-38 did stomp the Japanese. And other than in the 8th AF, it pretty well took care of the Luftwaffe as well, with a 4-6:1 kill to loss ratio outside the 8th AF. And a near 3:1 kill to loss ratio in the 8th AF.

The fact that there were too few P-38s is not the fault of the plane. Blame that on the War Production Board. It was the WPB that forced Lockheed to produce B-17s because Boeing could not meet the demands (had they had more P-38s instead, they'd have needed less B-17s).                                                        

Compressibility was not so serious an issue. It only prevented the P-38 from following Luftwaffe planes down in a dive. Big deal.

The Luftwaffe didn't have advantages over the P-38, it had advantages over the 8th AF. Plain and simple. If the Luftwaffa had advantages over the P-38, it would not have done well everywhere but in the 8th, but it did.

This is real simple.

The fact that there were too few P-38s is not an indicator of inferiority of the P-38, but an indicator of fundemental inadequacies in the supply system. The WPB forced Lockheed to build B-17s, and failed to second source the P-38. That has nothing at all to do with the P-38, and everything to do with the WPB.

The fact that there were not enough trained pilots for P-38s does not indicate an inadequacy in the P-38, it shows a basic fatal flaw in the pilot training system.

By the way, regarding McGuire, the first failure in your analysis is that you neglect to grasp the concept that there were in fact two enemy planes involved, they entered the fight at different times and from different directions, and that the P-38s were fully laden with nearly full drop tanks and full internal loads of fuel. Further, you also did not take into account that McGuire was flying an unfamiliar plane, not his regular plane, and that it required an all night maintenance thrash just to be ready to fly that day.

I really do not care who the data on the FW came from (in your post you listed the RAF).

Oh, and one more note. Beware of test data from military sources. In case you are not familiar with how the military actually acquires equipment, you should get intimate with the propcedure. Because if you think the best equipment for the job is always what is accepted, you are terribly mistaken. You should really study the way equipment was acquired and produced in World War II, look carefully at the War Production Board and the USAAC. The data is often skewed to allow acquisition of a certain piece of equipment. This greed and corruption goes on to this day.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2004, 08:50:00 PM »
I am fairly familiar with the Military.  I have 3 years til retirement as a grunt.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2004, 08:52:35 PM »
You still sound like you want to pretty up the facts to make them more palitable.  We call it splitting hairs.  

Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2004, 09:46:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You still sound like you want to pretty up the facts to make them more palitable.  We call it splitting hairs.  

Crumpp


Facts are facts, doesn't make a damn how you dress 'em.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2004, 09:48:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I am fairly familiar with the Military.  I have 3 years til retirement as a grunt.

Crumpp


Thank you for serving. With all due respect, being a grunt, as much as I respect it and appreciate it, does not necessarily make you all that familiar with the politics of acquisition. I've had experience with contracts with the DoD. It ain't pretty.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline gripen

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2004, 11:39:53 PM »
Shuckins,
The P-51B with the V-1650-3  had better rate of climb at above 25k than any  P-47D or P-38J (it was also faster than both above 25k), see AHT. In practice this means that the P-51B also had more power for maneuvering than the P-47D or P-38J above 25k. The P-51B could also reach higher acceleration at any given practical airspeed above 25k as lift coefficient comparison proves. Shortly the P-51Bwith V-1650-3 had better instantaneous and continous maneuverability than the P-47D or P-38J at high altitude. In addition the P-51 maintained controllability much better at around critical mach number.

The P-51B with the V-1650-3 had much better high altitude performance than the P-51D with the V-1650-7.

Murdr,
The A-36 had dive brakes developed for dive bombing which were physically much different than the dive recovery flaps tested in the XP-51, see this.

Basicly Locheed could not determine reasons for high speed problems of the P-38 but NACA could. NACA also offered a practical but only partial solution to the problem which was taken to the production. Lockheed's own solutions failed or were impossible to take to the production without large delays. For one reason or another  Kelly Johnson does not credit NACA for these.

gripen

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #160 on: July 01, 2004, 12:04:28 AM »
Kelly Johnson does not credit NACA because they deserve no credit. It was Lockheed that identified the problem, and NACA refused to allow wind tunnel testing.

The only outside fix accorded Lockheed was those stupid counterweights that did nothing.

It was Lockheed that came up with the dive flaps and the new fillet radius at the cockpit nacelle.

NACA had nothing at all to do with solving any P-38 high speed issues.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #161 on: July 01, 2004, 02:34:42 AM »
Capn Virgil Hilts,

The horsepower rating for the V-1650-3 engine was 950hp at normal power at 29,500 feet.  It's rate of climb at that altitude was little better than 1600 feet a minute, whereas that of the P-47 D series was approximately the same.  Power loadings were nowhere near as similar...that of the Jug being 7.21 pounds per horsepower at 30,000 feet and that of the P-51D (V-1650-7) being better than 10 lbs per horsepower.  This is what contributed to greater maneuverability for the Jug.

Also, this advantage in power loading allowed the P-47 to have a service ceiling a full 5,000 ft. greater than that of the Mustang.  According to German pilots, Me-109Ks also had a higher service ceiling than the Mustang...again because of superior power loadings.

Offline Murdr

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P-38 Still has Problems
« Reply #162 on: July 01, 2004, 06:24:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen

Murdr,
The A-36 had dive brakes developed for dive bombing which were physically much different than the dive recovery flaps tested in the XP-51, see this.

gripen


I have seen that many times.  It says, as I said, they were first tested at Ames in 1942 (October).  "and were first flight tested by the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation from December 1942 to April 1943.  Subsequent flight tests....Army Air Forces and Republic...P-47...xp-51"  I made my previous statments from memory of multiple sources, and I dont see where my memory served wrong.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 06:32:34 AM by Murdr »

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2004, 06:43:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
You mean you're not staying until the name calling starts, and the thread gets locked?  :D



Hehe that's on Page 3...just look for Luftwhiners in leterhosen :cP



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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2004, 06:48:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp


Compressibility problem = pilots unable to dogfight efficiently = LW has the advantage in winning against P38





Which was no longer an issue with the P-38JL0-25 series or the P-38L since they had dive flaps.  Lockheed's top test pilot even flew demonstrations showing how the P-38 could avoid compressability with the dive flaps but by then the 8th AAF had already made up it's mind.  And as other's have pointed out, it was only the 8th AAF that got rid of the P-38 but then the 8th AAF high command had a bomber's mentality.

When the first P-38Js with dive flaps started to appear, German pilots were pretty much astounded that the P-38 was able to follow them in a dive when they weren't before.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song