Outnumbered by Rooks...again

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
As for 100 logging off .. must have been around midnight then .. numbers held in the 180s for Rooks from 9 - 11 and started dropped down in the 160s before I logged.

Early in the evening, Rooks had 215-225 on...from the Knit persepctive, a43 was about to fall and a1 was in serious jeapordy.  With the Truce, we were able to mount a counter-offensive that stopped the a43 assault cold and took down fh at a50.  Just after that, several noted that Rook numbers fell to below 200.  This was about 9:30-10pm eastern.  The offensive carried on to take a48 and a49 around 10-10:30pm...Rook numbers fell to the 170-180 range once those bases were lost.

[Hyrax81st]

Originally posted by Murdr
Hmm, yes well fortunately enough people value gameplay quality above a silly country tag...

       That's just the point (and a very subjective one, too). Many of us DO value "gameplay quality". It's just defined differently from your interpretation. Some of us value the gameplay quality that comes from flying with people we have known for longer than Aces High has existed. Your definition of gameplay quality is based on something else besides the enjoyment of friends flying together. It's your money, you can do what you want. But allegiance and loyalties are two big things that keep game communities going strong.

       If I'm overwhelmed in the air, I get into a GV. If I can't find a good GV battle, I get into a CV gun and defend a TaskGroup. There's a lot here to keep me interested - and I don't have to constantly switch countries to find it.

[ghostdancer]

crowMAW I came on around 9:00 and the Nightmares were in the south hitting the Bishops (who were at the time crossing the bay and hitting A42 and P39.

Around that time it looked to me Rooks were at 180+. Not sure of before 9 pm.

I do know the guys up north had problems with 43 and the base way to the north (is that A50) and heavy fighting up there. Didn't really pay attention to the north and just concentrated in the south.

Rook numbers were about split on the two fronts. At least the active squads were .. with a bunch also in the central area.

Numbers while I checked were in teh 180+ from 9 - 11. Drop off into the 160s after 11 but then again everyone seemed to fall a similiar drop.

Was interesting to see Knights have second largest numbers and for a while in the 140s.

[Panman]

Numbers vary from time to time. The Regulators used to fly Bish.Thats all changed now, but anyway for 1yr or so we flew bish, I have found that bish numbers tend climb in the mornings.(4am est ) as the day crew logs on.Sunday night just happens to be a good night for Rooks.I don't think its a HT prob.Deal with it.

                                                       Panman
                                                       CO "Regulators"

[peregrin]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
peregrin you would be right if you were looking at the statistics for just one camp. But I posted the stastics for 54 camps from Feb. 2000 until now.

First off the Bishops have always lossed more than they have killed except for the first 3 months.

This indicates one of two possible things .. either they on average have had more pilots flying or their pilots fly more hops. Now from 2/00 to 2/03 basically their total number of kills were very competitive with the other two countries (not talking about K/D but total kills).

So at least during this time period you could extrapolate that either they had the most pilots/most active pilots or were second. You have to look at the excel sheet trends to see what I am talking about and compare the overall deaths and overall kills for the countries over this period.

Now starting in 2003 things started to change and instead of wide discrepancies betweent he countries they evened out for a bit and then the Knights tooks a dive and the Rooks surged ahead big time (started 9/03).

So assumptions on one camp and numbers meaningless yes .. but comparing the numbers of 54 camps can start to give you statisctial trends.

I'm not arguing that the numbers lack statistical significance, but that they measure the wrong thing.

You claim that the number of players logged on is proportional to the number of kills they get.  When in actuality the number of kills they get is more dependant on the number of players available to get killed.  

A more usefull statistic would be to sum up the aggregate time on line for each country.  Alas that statistic is unavailable on this website.
--Peregrine.

[ghostdancer]

 I think the argement that "we used to get ganged all the time...now its your turn" is silly. So...its rooks turn to have numbers and gang everyone else? lol. Human nature at its finest.[/b]

The arguement is not that we used to get ganged all the time and now its your turn (at least by some of us). What the arguement is that it takes time and some effort to turn things around.

Rooks were in the bucket badly for 2 years and actually until 2003 fielded the least amount of players (4 years straight). HiTech modified the perk system, several squads came over and flew Rooks for a campaign or two, etc. The Rook squads form the RJO to work with each other in a multi-squad format since no one squad was big enough to do things by themselves. Several squads went onto a recruiting drive, missions were posted to entice independents, etc., etc.

What some of us are saying is that you can't expect things to turn around over night or not without some collective effort.

It looks like USMC and 367th are trying to do some collective work and also apply strategy and tactics to deal with the situation. This is a very good step to do and what we did and proved effective the last two weeks. But it takes a lot of work and time to turn things around. Plus, some don't believe it was turned around by collective effort in the case of the Rooks.

So its not a matter of its your turn in the bucket and tough; its a matter of well here is what you can do about it but things aren't going to turn around in a month or two. Its going to take longer than that.

As for Rooks ganging one side over the other currently Rooks have been attacking the country with more numbers, not less on the average. Also at least over the past two weeks while Rooks have numbers you are not seeing 80% against one side and 20% against the other. You are seeing like 55%-60% versus one and 45%-40% versus the other .. roughly.

Camp stats bear this out at least for Camp 54 so far.

76902 Bishops killed (52.3%)
60974 killed by Bishops

70316 Knights killed (47.8%)
61822 killed by Knights

Rooks have been attacking the Bishops more than the Knights since the Bishops have more numbers and with it are more aggressive or have opportunity to be more aggressive generally than Knights. Yes, Rooks have numbers but in general they are not going after the weakest are throwing most of the numbers against just one country to the exclusion of the other.

Also yes, it would be nice if some squads switched over to Knights. However, as we found out very few squads will just switch of their own accord. A handful did and came over for a couple of camps. A few stayed but in the end it didn't help us that much. But it did give us a breather to stop working on recruiting independents into our squads and increasing pilot turnout of our squads (stopping the bleed of people stop playing or avoiding certain nights).

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st
That's just the point (and a very subjective one, too). Many of us DO value "gameplay quality". It's just defined differently from your interpretation. Some of us value the gameplay quality that comes from flying with people we have known for longer than Aces High has existed. .....There's a lot here to keep me interested - and I don't have to constantly switch countries to find it.

Neither do I.  And if you had bothered to read my post I said I can go to any country and fly with people that I have know that pre-date AH.  In the tours where I have flown for more than one country it was specifically to fly with some of these friends.  I however do not find gratification with flying around often in an overwelming horde (on either side).
 
If my "interpretation" of "gameplay quality" is so radical, then why do the many threads like this one exist?  Mabey because that type of complacentcy ignores the overall gameplay quality.
So I guess I am just out of wack, because I cant see constantly flying around outnumbering everyone, and then patting myself on the back for a job well done.

The replies I got to just saying "That is true. For a practical matter it is up to squads to balance numbers." are really surprising to me, as I did not single anyone out.  For a practical matter if a country consistantly up by 30 pilots, and 2 active squads decide to move, then things balance out rather quickly.  I dont understand why people are being touchy about that.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Grimm
Yes, there were complaints.   Yet,  the Rooks worked their way out of thier dilema.    Personaly I wish that folks didnt complain, and not all do,  some just bring things to the table to be examined.  

Alright,  you admitted it.  its your fault... Stone him!@!  

Hmm, you seem to want to gloss over what allowed the Rooks to work "their way of of thier dilema." It wasn't organization or RJO's, it was the fact the a few intrepid Bish/Knit squads chose to go Rook.

Personally, I really don't care much. I used to enjoy playing on the weekends. Now....I do other stuff and let you guys steamroll the arena to your virtual hearts' content. It really is no different than when the Air Warrior WarHawks had their squad nite on Sunday's in the early '90's. The arena limits were 32 players and at least 24 of them would be WH's. Hey...welcome to life in the virtual world. Accept it and deal with it is my motto .

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st
Rooks don't have numbers because we like to overwhelm. I bet most of us are working adults with families who enjoy working together on operations. Sunday nights just happens to be our best "old folks" time to get together.

... and, gosh darn it... we're just nicer people. That's why numbers gravitate to our side.

Exactly Hyrax!

[ghostdancer]

Nobaddy a few intrepid Knight & Bishop squads came over. The key here is a "few". They bought us a little breathing space (by that mean not being crushed as badly) to rally members of our squads and start to work and rebuild squads and tie in independents.

They flew most only flew with us a few camps before moving. Some stayed ..

But it took from Oct. 2001 to 2003 to work out of the hole.

A few squads did not just come over and bam everything was roses or the numbers evened out in a month or two.

The Bishops only have 82 dedicated squads, and 8 primary squads with a total of 1056 pilots. Yet, they are fielding consistently the second most numbers and a few nights now and then the most.

The Knights have 96 dedicated and 16 primary for a possible of 1239 pilots. But are consistently fielding the least number of pilots.

A few squads switching to help out the Knights would be great. And a couple have. But it would take more than a few to switch to balance things out. You would need like 200+ players switching. And then in the case of the Knights more of their pilots flying again.

What squads switching will do is to buy Knight squads breathing space to start engaging their guys in the game again, finding new recruits, and gain their legs. But it won't happen over night and not simply because a few squads switch for a bit.

They need squads to switch and stay not switch and leave. They need the squads that they have to start having their pilots fly more. Possibly they need could use more missions being posted and run .. I know when Ripsnort used to be a Knight he ran missions all the time and caused us no end of headaches.

Knights used to have MAG-33 .. a multi squad group .. maybe that would help also.

Don't know.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Hyrax81st
That's just the point (and a very subjective one, too). Many of us DO value "gameplay quality". It's just defined differently from your interpretation. Some of us value the gameplay quality that comes from flying with people we have known for longer than Aces High has existed. Your definition of gameplay quality is based on something else besides the enjoyment of friends flying together. It's your money, you can do what you want. But allegiance and loyalties are two big things that keep game communities going strong.

       If I'm overwhelmed in the air, I get into a GV. If I can't find a good GV battle, I get into a CV gun and defend a TaskGroup. There's a lot here to keep me interested - and I don't have to constantly switch countries to find it.

My sentiments exactly, very well explained.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Don't be so simplistic so as to cheapen what I have tried to explain.

No we don't wait for an equal number to up, but when there are only 3-5 of us, its very easy for them to up that amount of defenders, or more, in a short amount of time. Along with that, we ALL don't engage (gang) the few that may come up. No fun in that. We do try to make the initial engagement as fair as possible.

Eventually, some of us die, and the remaing guys usually die once they are overwhelmed. We then head back to the same base and hope that they too start to head towards us and we meet in the middle. Now we have the scenario we hoped for.

The inital engagement is only meant to stir up the hornets nest and for the most part, it works ... for us.

I offered an insight as to why I/we tend to like the bigger maps and really have no more impetus to argue the merits of what we try to do to find "fights" ... it was just input. Leave you innuendos at the door.

No need to apologize ... I could really care less if you think it's rediculous or not.

Sounds like what you, few, honorable people really need is the Combat Theater, not ENORMOUS MA MAPS. Then, you 4 guys and the other 4 guys in there can take turns bashing each other's brain's out at 4k in SpitV's or whichever flavor stall-fighter it has at the time.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by meddog
Wow 17 pages, another answer is for Knights and Bishops to form an alliance on sunday nights like we did last night and stopped the Rooks dead in their tracks.  With in an hour, over 100 Rooks logged off in frustration.  Except for a few Knights and Bish that thought truces were for wusses and attacked the other side anyways, last night was fairly successful for the knights and bishops.

Hate to burst your bubble there guy, but it was squadnight for us, we don't have squadnight for 5+ hours, it's a one or two hour thing. Rooks logging-off had not thing one to do with any perceived success you think you were having against them. Simply, squad night was over, time for bed to get up for work Monday morning...

Zazen

[ghostdancer]

Originally posted by Murdr
The replies I got to just saying "That is true. For a practical matter it is up to squads to balance numbers." are really surprising to me, as I did not single anyone out.  For a practical matter if a country consistantly up by 30 pilots, and 2 active squads decide to move, then things balance out rather quickly.  I dont understand why people are being touchy about that. [/B]

You hit the nail on the head. HiTech is not going to force anybody or any squad to switch. Nobody likes being dictated too or forced to do something they don't want to do .. like switch if its not their idea.

The crux of the matter is what convinces those 2 squads to move? Plus, once moved they probably will stay with the country the moved too for a while. Since its a pain to get everyone to move and re-oriented (at least for medium and big squads). Plus, humans tend to be tribal and invest more into a flag, boundry lines, ethnicity, etc. than what seems logical. So you will always have squad members refusing to move or very unhappy over moving. Although their are a few squads that don't mind it and their used to be some that rotated every camp .. don't see those any more.

But when a squad does move the new country needs to be receptive and working on keeping those new people. I know back in 2002 there was a time that those Rooks left were very hostile to new squads coming over "to save us" with the purpose to save us when we were in the bucket. Several idiots ran their mouths so much those who came over to help left because it wasn't worth the hostility. Then you always have those idiots who yell about spying etc.

But their are three routes .. either get more of your squad members flying, recruit more members, or convince some other squads to move or if they move make them very welcome and fun environment. Some combination of the 3 over a period of time does make a significant difference.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Zazen et al...  you really can't make the kind of inferences you've been making based on the available data for kills and deaths.  We simply cannot conclude that these discrepencies occur due to skill or numbers or anything else at this level of measurement.  The number of campaigns does not matter.

If we could disaggregate some of that data, we might be able to learn something.  How many sorties did each side fly?  On average, what numbers did each side enjoy relative to the other?  What planes did each side fly?  etc etc.

-- Todd/Leviathn

I'm not basing my demographics specualtions on statistics. I'm basing my demographic specualtions on personal experience. Todd, go Bishop for a few days, make sure you have VOX on REAL LOUD. What you will hear is the shrill squeal of the unchanged voices of pre-pubescent boys 7 out of 10 transmissions. Then after your head is pounding and your eardrums ruptured, go Rooks and listen to the deep tonal quality of the adults for comparison.