Author Topic: None, Zero, Nada... (Read 3972 times)

Martlet · « **Reply #195 on:** August 07, 2004, 10:31:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash
Thanks for the link Martlet. I'd love to hear you answer the qustion I posed:

"Isn't it odd to you that these CO's gave Kerry good Fitreps (see above), yet 35 years later not only are they seemingly contradicting themselves wrt to Kerry's fitness, but seem to think they are qualified to judge someones fitness wrt to the qualifications of being a President, not to mention 35 years and no contact later?"

First, go back to that link and read the analysis of the fitreps by the people that wrote them. Then see where it says only the good fitreps were posted, and the ones they wrote which included what an egghead he was aren't there.

Toad · « **Reply #196 on:** August 07, 2004, 11:05:06 PM »

Nah, I don't think you're Weaz; not enough ad hominem.

I think you're a reasonably intelligent guy, which is why I figure you're trolling. The light you're fishing with is the flash when the dynamite goes off.

You use the enlisted guyss "being there in the boat" as the only way any of these guys could know Kerry. You dismiss his fellow officers that were his squadronmates. You're smart enough to realize that he did not fraternize with the enlisted guys very much outside of "duty hours". His non-duty hours he spent with his fellow officers. He shared quarters with his fellow officers, he partied in the O-Club with his fellow officers, he had philosophical, political, every-day-life discussions with his fellow officers AND his fellow officers were on the same patrols he went on, albeit in other boats perhaps a few hundred yards away, performing the same mission he was performing.

Yep, no way his fellow officers could know anything about him.

Like all the crew commanders in my outfit didnt' know anything else about all the other crew commanders.

You're hypothesis here is ludicrous; but it's brilliant the way you've kept you're definition of being there completely on your own terms.

It's all fine, except that you're smart enough to know that and are just fishing with it. Which is fine too, except you're denying it; heck you've got an "any species, unlimited catch" BBS license.

Maybe somebody is buying that act but I'm not.

Still, it's a marvelous haul; if the tuna keep biting, you'll be a veritable Midas of BBS gold when you dock and sell the catch.

Martlet · « **Reply #197 on:** August 07, 2004, 11:19:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Every single CO opposes Kerry either because of his anti-war protesting or politics. Let's face it; the Democrats have not exactly been the favourite political party of the military. However those same COs awarded Kerry the Silver Star and Bronze Star, your nation's second and third highest military award for valour in combat ... of course at the time they didn't know he was going to protest the war, or become a Democrat presidential candidate.

Really? That isn't what they said. They say he's unfit to be CIC. You must have some inside information. Would you care to share it?

Martlet · « **Reply #198 on:** August 07, 2004, 11:45:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Well then they must have some inside information. Do they say why he is unfit for command, or do they just attack his military service. Ah ... I see. That would be the latter.

As usual, you're flapping your pie hole based on assumptions rather than going to see for yourself first.

They actually have an extensive list detailing why they feel he is unfit to be CIC.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #199 on:** August 07, 2004, 11:56:00 PM »

What really happened to Kerry in Vietnam...

Martlet · « **Reply #200 on:** August 08, 2004, 12:33:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
There you go attacking his military service again. Nothing to do with his fitness for command ... otherwise you wouldn't have a drunk-driving, AWOL National Guardsman as president.

AWOL? I must have missed that. Can you show my the sentencing call?

Mini D · « **Reply #201 on:** August 08, 2004, 12:50:11 AM »

Ah... OK... I got it.

Testimony... he only told other people's stories... when he TESTIFIED before congress. "Do you swear that what you're about to say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

Why was Kerry testifying in front of congress. Anyone? Nash? gscholz?

Nah... he's not being treated as an expert witness. They ask everyone to testify in front of congress. yes. that's it.

I find it odd what is so off-handedly dismissed, yet so beligerently refuted. Nobody could have possibly known kerry very well unless they served with him... unless you want to cite the fitness reports, which must have been accurate depictions by people that never served with him and just don't know him. Yes... that's a completely logical aproach.

Toad hit the nail on the head. Nash has his own definitions and criteria that must be met. It doesn't really make much sense, but he seems to stick with it.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #202 on:** August 08, 2004, 12:58:13 AM »

I can't believe people are going to beat this horse about Kerry's deserving or not deserving medals and whether that makes him an unfit CIC.

When are we going to get to George W.'s alcoholism and cocain use?

Martlet · « **Reply #203 on:** August 08, 2004, 09:17:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
That was too easy. You shouldn't go on the defensive so quickly Martlet.

Please continue your favourite national pastime gentlemen. Mudslinging.

Is it time for the Second American Civil War yet? Might be less painful than your elections.

Defensive? I just saved us 3 pages of arguing. Call you on your accusations, asking for proof, knowing you can't provide it.

Bingo, we can now establish you are full of crap and make up facts, so we can write off what you say as more lies. Now that that's out of the way, back to the original topic.

There is contention that Kerry DIDN'T earn his Silver Star. Did anyone read the circumstances surrounding it? I reprinted a copy of the rebuttal letter to radio stations. Pretty interesting read.

Nash · « **Reply #204 on:** August 08, 2004, 09:38:36 AM »

Toad/MiniD - since you're both saying basically the same thing....

Isn't it nice that you want to argue style, and get me to my loosen up the parameters a bit here... Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.

Pardon me for advocating for one side while (and who's kidding who?) you're doing the exact same thing. Don't tell me how to do my job.

Or if you wanna get me to budge, hows about you go first?

As it is... okay fine... The officers not on his boat would know Kerry and be perfectly entitled to write a book along the lines of:

"It was with a cool, almost calculated detachement that Kerry stepped into the OC and ordered the first beer of the night".

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #205 on:** August 08, 2004, 09:51:12 AM »

Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.

But will yiou admit that your side believe his service is a valid indicator of his fitness to be cic... Or maybe I was just watching a different John Kerry is war hero convention than you were..

Martlet · « **Reply #206 on:** August 08, 2004, 09:56:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash
Toad/MiniD - since you're both saying basically the same thing....

Isn't it nice that you want to argue style, and get me to my loosen up the parameters a bit here... Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.

Pardon me for advocating for one side while (and who's kidding who?) you're doing the exact same thing. Don't tell me how to do my job.

Or if you wanna get me to budge, hows about you go first?

As it is... okay fine... The officers not on his boat would know Kerry and be perfectly entitled to write a book along the lines of:

"It was with a cool, almost calculated detachement that Kerry stepped into the OC and ordered the first beer of the night".

You don't want to read anything that contradicts your comfort fact base. It's all right there for you to see. You're arguing from a position of ignorance and you don't even know it. Here's a few examples of people NOT on Kerry's boat, but in a position to speak about him:

"(ii) The Bronze Star Lie

As recounted in the attached affidavits of three on-scene participants (and verified by many others present) Kerry's operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent "no man left behind" story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation. As recounted in the affidavits of Van Odell (Exhibit 6), Jack Chenoweth (Exhibit 7), and Larry Thurlow (Exhibit 10) (and verified by every other officer present and many others), a mine went off under PCF 3 -- some yards from Kerry's boat. The force of the explosion disabled PCF 3 and knocked several sailors, dazed, into the water. All boats, except one, closed to rescue the sailors and defend the disabled boat. That boat -- Kerry's boat -- fled the scene. After a short period, it was evident to all on the scene that there was no additional hostile fire. Thurlow began the daring rescue of disabled PCF 3, while Chenoweth began to pluck dazed survivors of PCF 3 from the water. Midway through the process, after it was apparent that there was no hostile fire, Kerry finally returned, picking up Rassman who was only a few yards from Chenoweth's boat which was also going to pick Rassman up. Each of the affiants (and many other Swiftees on the scene that day) are certain that Kerry has wholly lied about the incident. Consider this: How could the disabled PCF abandon the scene of the mine? Why did Kerry have to "return" to the scene?

Kerry's account of this action, which was used to secure the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart, is an extraordinary example of fraud. Kerry describes "boats rcd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued for about 5000 meters." Exhibit 17. In other words, the boats went through a double gauntlet at about 50 yards distance that was 3.2 miles long (comparable to Seminary Ridge at Gettysburg on two sides), and yet none of the other boats within feet of Kerry's boat heard a shot or suffered an injury after the PCF 3 mine explosion, except for John Kerry's buttocks rice wound of earlier origin.

Clearly, Van Odell is right when he says, "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star . . . I know. I was there. I saw what happened." As Jack Chenoweth swore, "his account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day." Most poignantly, Larry Thurlow, whose brave actions saved the PCF 3 boat that day after Kerry fled, has the right to say, "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."

Read the reprint here

Stringer · « **Reply #207 on:** August 08, 2004, 10:02:17 AM »

The neat thing about all of this, is it is US Citizens who are the ones that go into the poll and vote on the first Tuesday in November.

Just sayin........

Nash · « **Reply #208 on:** August 08, 2004, 10:12:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But will yiou admit that your side believe his service is a valid indicator of his fitness to be cic... Or maybe I was just watching a different John Kerry is war hero convention than you were..

Sure, of course it is an indicator, and Kerry is using it.

As far as I'm concerened, merely signing up and going over there is an indication of something, let alone the rest of it.

But if Kerry were merely running on his Vietnam experience alone, well, there's thousands more vets better qualified to be CiC if that's the only criteria to judge fitness.

It is one aspect. Yet on the other side, we're to believe that this one aspect is the sole criteria for judging his fitness. What's the title of the book?

Martlet · « **Reply #209 on:** August 08, 2004, 10:52:06 AM »

"(i) The Purple Heart Lie

Kerry's third Purple Heart was his ticket home. It also was much of the basis of his Bronze Star, repeating "his bleeding arm" and shrapnel wound from the mine story. The problem is that his operating report was a total lie since Kerry's shrapnel wound "in the buttocks" came not from a mine at all as he falsely reported, but at his own hand. Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, recounts that Kerry's shrapnel wound came not from any mine, but from a self-inflicted wound when Kerry (with no enemy to be seen) threw a concussion grenade into a rice pile and stayed too close. See Exhibit 10, ¶ 3. This "brown rice" incident with rice/shrapnel lodged in Kerry from his own grenade is also recounted by James Rassman, a Kerry supporter and "the no man left behind" on page 105 of John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography By The Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best, by Michael Kranish, Brian C. Mooney, and Nina J. Easton (New York: Public Affairs, 2004) (the "Kranish book"). See Exhibit 21.

Most surprisingly, John Kerry himself (while falsely reporting to the Navy and public that he suffered a shrapnel wound from a mine explosion so as to get a third Purple Heart and go home) reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from any mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache by himself or friendly troops (in the absence of any enemy fire). "I got a piece of small grenade in my bellybutton from one of the rice bin explosions." Exhibit 15, Tour, at 313; see also Exhibit 15, Tour, at 317. "Kerry . . . also had the bits of shrapnel and rice extracted from his backside." See also the sworn statement of participants that there was no hostile fire (Exhibits 6, 7, and 10). It also should be noted that the rice extracted from Kerry's backside could hardly be the result of an underwater mine, as Kerry claimed in his operating report.

The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home."