Furballers -vs- Timid Pilots

[mars01]

Zazen no one said anything about people that fight tactically, the ones that fight anyway - it's those that don't fight, that run as soon as they lost the advantage that don't try to out manuver there opponent, extend till they are out of Icon rang etc.  These guys don't even turn back after you give them your six free and clear.

Taking an aircraft out of its designed context for the sake of amusing your adversary is just foolhardy. It's not cowardice that makes the Typhoon pilot decline an angles fight with a Spit V, it's common sense.

As for the above, well your missing out on a whole other side of this game.  I love flying the unerdog match up, it really test the mettle.  So what if I lose a few the ones I win are well worth it.

As for your noob progression  - I'll give you my personal expieriance as a counter.  I rushed in for about a month, got killed every time, so I climbed to the top of the pack where it was safe and Bore N Zoomed because that was easy.  As I started to understand the complexity of stall and angle fighting I started succeeding there as well.  I will fly one way then get bored and fly the other.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Urchin
I can think of at least one example of a very successful "energy fighter" that can't turnfight for beans.  And that is just off the top of my head.  

I don't nescesarily think the two skill-sets are mutually exculsive, but they are by no means inclusive.  You don't need to angles fight if you fly a fast plane to "energy fight" with... you just need to run away.  So that is what people do.

Where do you get, Energy Fighting = Running away, from? Declining to get into an angles fight with a superior turning aircraft is the only situation I can conceive of that would call for 'running away'. But, that is nothing particular to Energy Fighting. You know this Urchin, I'm sure I do not have to type out the definition of energy fighting for you but I will for others' benifit.

Energy fighting is the execution of manuevers that seek to create a favorable disparity between you and your adversary's energy states that does not necessarily lead to an immediate gunnery solution, but instead puts you at such an energy advantage that a killing opportunities are inevitable.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Stang
I think I have to disagree with you here my friend... This was your personal experience, making the pregression from noob to great angles fighter to E fighter extraordinare   However, most do not go through this process as you did.  Again, I really think it comes down to natural talent and feel as to who becomes a poor, average or good stick.  You have all the skills and can do whatever you wish w/ 99% of the MA, but for the average guy flying his la7 they have one option, run, cherry pick, run and run some more.  I see this fact in the DA a lot... some guy (usually a very experinced vet) will challenge me and we go at it a couple runs, and I sware at merge they have no frikkin clue about what to do.  Hell, just yanking the stick back to your chest and turning as tight as possible will make for a great fight, but 9 out of 10 guys I fight don't even do this.  They seriously look like they have a "what do I do now?" look on their face (after all they can't ho me in the DA on merge   )  Now, from an experienced vet, you wouldn't expect this, but it's truly the norm.  Why? I don't know.  Absolutely baffles me.  Do I care?  Not as long as they're easy kills  

I can't comment on the particulars of the habits of La7 pilots, as I have never and will never fly an La7. But, for the most part as I stated, true newbies do not have the patience, situational awareness, tactical awareness or aim to energy fight in the classical sense (energy fighting is not just BnZ'ing) with any efficiency.

I did alot of training in Airwarrior, almost without exception the only kind of fighting a newbie was interested in or was even aware of was yank n' bank turn fighting. It wasn't until they got tired of JUST doing that that they would come and seek to understand the nuances and intricacies of true energy fighting.

I didn't mean to imply that once you reach a certain level at angles fighting the next step in everyone's virtual flying career is to become an Energy fighting tactician. Obviously, some just continue to Angles fight and become ever more proficient at it. What I am implying is that the truly SUCCESSFULL energy fighters, not just ones that are vets who have simply played a long time, the ones that are very good at energy fighting, had to first cultivate a skill-set grounded in angles fighting.

I never said people who exclusively angles fight cannot become successfull energy fighters. What I am saying is, just because someone chooses to energy fight does not mean they cannot also angles fight proficiently, they simply choose not to unless a situation or plane match-up calls for it. Has nothing to due with one's testosterone levels, genital endowment, or bravery, it's simply a matter of executing tactics that adhere to the energy fighting methodology of air combat. That is not to say you can't switch gears mid-flight as I posted earlier in the thread, but simply if you do switch gears or meld the two tactics sets you have to have great timing and acute situational awareness to not have a negative outcome, espeically if you are in a fighter ill-suited to sustained turn-fighting.


Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
As for your noob progression  - I'll give you my personal expieriance as a counter.  I rushed in for about a month, got killed every time, so I climbed to the top of the pack where it was safe and Bore N Zoomed because that was easy.  As I started to understand the complexity of stall and angle fighting I started succeeding there as well.  I will fly one way then get bored and fly the other.

You first learned to angles fight...as I have stated 99% do.

Energy fighting is not just Boom and Zoom. That is like saying angles fighting is just a flat break turn in a merry-go-round circle. A gross generalization and oversimplification that relegates a whole method of flying to one basic manuever, it's just not accurate.

Zazen

[Cobra412]

Well I'm about average if that when it comes to flying but I do think I've learned something when it comes to some of this.  I started out flying the typical "dweeb plane" as some would say in the Mk IX.  I got fairly decent at flying it.  

When I switched over to the Mustang about 2 months ago I had alot of problems learning how to setup and control my E state especially on turners.  What I did learn though is that I can mix both the BnZ and the TnB in one engagement.  Again I'm not that great but even though I'm in a Mustang I have touched base with my old Mk IX flying and introduced some of what I learned there to the Mustang.  I found it actually helped knowing how to TnB before knowing how to BnZ.  Granted it may just be me but I think learning angles first then going to BnZ would help alot.

Once you've learned the angles side of fighting you can start implementing that knowledge into a fairly lethal Tnb/BnZ package. This ofcourse is only if you know your limits in the BnZ bird and try to fly it to the edge of those limits in both speed and turning capabilities.

[TequilaChaser]

In all fairness to the posters on this thread,  most only see the 2 styles of fighting, angles/stall fighting and Boom and zoom fighting, and most think Energy fighting is the same thing as Boom and Zoom fighting. bu that is not the case.

as for your thought Zazen of most leanr angles first, I would counter with the new people that want to figure out how a certian plane out maneuvered them will want to learn angles first while the other new guy that is as ya'll put it "timid" or scared to get shot down goes the route of BnZing.

My opinion of a successful E Fighter Pile it,  is you actually need a good understanding of both angles/stall fighting, Boom and Zoom fighting style, SA and knowledge of a multitude of Maneuvers and the understanding of why the maneuvers work for each given situation.
Let me add to this that the E fighter pilot has studied his plane and all of the planes he flys against, he knows how to work his strong points while making the enemy fly to his enemy's weaknesses, he also has a good eye for reeling in a big fish and hooking him



You will always see crap loads of boom and zoom type fighters that don't even know what they are doing, example by mars they extend beyond dot range, never reverse, never grab alt after there 1st or second pass they just run.you will see lots of angles fighters that are 1 maneuver wonders too.they may have a good reverse but if they blow it, they are lost.

There is very few true "E" fighters in Aces High that know what they are doing, and it is becoming a lost art. Unless the older veteran type players pass it on to the new kids on the runway!

one more thing, to  fight in the Energy fighter mode does not mean come in with loads of alt, you can be the low man in the fight but still have the E advantage,  and it does not mean zoom your opponent and grab alt and play cherry picker..........

just another view of it all.........

[Dead Man Flying]

I think saying that most people "learn" angles first is a stretch.  People yank the stick and turnfight as a matter of instinct.  Whether they actually learn anything other than dying fast is another matter.  It seems to me that after frustration mounts over dying early and often with little to show for it, players arrive at a crossroads.  Most just quit.  The rest learn either angles fighting, energy fighting, or some combination of the two; mostly which one depends on their peers, the available training, and personality factors.

I think it's a mistake to see this sort of thing as a progression.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[TequilaChaser]

Yep DeadMan, I believe  I started my reply at the cross roads part you  refered to.....


I still view it as 3 types of  fighting style though,
easiest - Boom and zoom fighting
then  - angles/stall fighting
then- energy Fighting

but we all have our opinions

[Urchin]

There are different types of energy fighting.  Only a few planes can actually do what I consider "pure" energy fighting, in which you enter an engagement co-E with an opponent, then build up an energy advantage over the course of a fight.  Of course, you then convert that energy advantage into a lethal positional (or angular) advantage, so perhaps my "pure" energy fighting isn't so pure after all.   Some planes that are well suited to this style of fighting are the Spit 9, Spit 14, 109( depending on what its facing), La7, Tempest.. thats all I can think of off the top of my head.  The most important attribute necesary for this style of fighting is acceleration.  Climb rate helps to, especially if you can climb slowly at a steep angle.

A more common form of "energy fighting" is 'Boom and Zoom'.  It is not necesary for a plane to have great (or even good) acceleration to utilize this approach.  The 'boom and zoom' pilot will approach his opponent from a greater altitude, and preferably a greater speed.  He will utilize this speed and altitude advantage to make passes on the enemy airplane.  After each pass the "boom and zoomer" will climb back to the heavens to set up for his next aerial strafing run.  Attributes helpful to this style of fighting include top speed and firepower.  Planes that are good for "boom and zoom" include the Typhoon, P-51, 190, and P-47.  

Depending on the situation, planes that I haven't named can find themselves in an ideal position to utilize one of these forms of energy fighting.  For example, an A6M2 fighting a P-40B can use its superior acceleration and low speed handling to dominate the fight, without any chance of a nasty surprise as one might get purely fighting an angles game.  Similarly, an F6F that finds a lone A6M will more than likely start 'boom and zooming', taking advantage of its higher top speed to set up above the enemy.  

A third "school" is Bore n Zoooom.  This is the most common form of energy fighting found in the MA.  Tactics include making half-ass wobbly passes, firing at 800 yards and breaking off, and orbiting over the head of a lone con while screaming for help on all available channels.  

By the way.. for you Bore n Zoooom folks... flying your plane "to the edge" does not mean ecking out every last foot of altitude on every zoom.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Cobra412
Well I'm about average if that when it comes to flying but I do think I've learned something when it comes to some of this.  I started out flying the typical "dweeb plane" as some would say in the Mk IX.  I got fairly decent at flying it.  

When I switched over to the Mustang about 2 months ago I had alot of problems learning how to setup and control my E state especially on turners.  What I did learn though is that I can mix both the BnZ and the TnB in one engagement.  Again I'm not that great but even though I'm in a Mustang I have touched base with my old Mk IX flying and introduced some of what I learned there to the Mustang.  I found it actually helped knowing how to TnB before knowing how to BnZ.  Granted it may just be me but I think learning angles first then going to BnZ would help alot.

Once you've learned the angles side of fighting you can start implementing that knowledge into a fairly lethal Tnb/BnZ package. This ofcourse is only if you know your limits in the BnZ bird and try to fly it to the edge of those limits in both speed and turning capabilities.

Precisely the point I'm making, thank-you for the personal illustration.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Yep DeadMan, I believe  I started my reply at the cross roads part you  refered to.....


I still view it as 3 types of  fighting style though,
easiest - Boom and zoom fighting
then  - angles/stall fighting
then- energy Fighting

but we all have our opinions

Yup. I angles fight, I energy fight, and I do both at the same time. As far as I'm concerned pure angles fighting is very much like an arcade game, you stay at your best corner speed, apply flaps if applicable, work the ACM's for snapshot angles and voila, that's it. Not a whole lot to concern yourself with, there's you, there's your adversary, simply work him for a gunnery solution before he does the same to you and you win. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, I know better, I'm  just saying it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, forethought, expansive awareness or tactical analysis.

Energy fighting properly (not just BnZ), on the other hand, requires a far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills. You must have situational awareness that spans the entire arena down to your gun range at all times. You must have precise tactical awareness, by this I mean knowledge of all enemy and friendly plane's E/alt states, vectors and likely intentions within your visual range and even beyond to local dot dar range. You must have patience, discipline, good aim and a very good grasp of ACM's, especially some of the more complex ACM's that are not as immediately obvious as are those most often employed in strictly angle's fighting scenario's where the goal is to simply cut the corner, ride the edge of a stall and get lead for a snap-shot or tracking shot.

Then there's the combination of the two. I think everyone does both to some extent, except possibly the cariacturized versions of energy fighters that ONLY BnZ Urchin spoke of (they are undoubtedly more annoying than effective). My rule of thumb when to switch gears, personally, is whether I have a sustained turn-rate advantage over my adversary and whether I am likely to conclude the fight before he gets help. If I'm in a pony, for example, I'll turn with anything but the pure angles fighters in a heartbeat. In a Typhoon however, there's only a small number of planes I'll go to angles with in most situations (Jugs, La7s & 190s for example).

Yes, I'll try to gain seperation from the other planes with a turnrate advantage, but don't confuse keeping an enemy at arms length to negate his superior turn performance with running. Maintaining vertical and/or lateral distance and flight-path seperation is a crucial consideration in almost any air combat action and is a principle consideration with regard to almost any air combat manuever. Anyone who says otherwise has no clue wtf they are talking about.

Zazen

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Urchin

A third "school" is Bore n Zoooom.  This is the most common form of energy fighting found in the MA.  Tactics include making half-ass wobbly passes, firing at 800 yards and breaking off, and orbiting over the head of a lone con while screaming for help on all available channels.  

By the way.. for you Bore n Zoooom folks... flying your plane "to the edge" does not mean ecking out every last foot of altitude on every zoom.

And that is the best description of the Timid Pilot.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup. I angles fight, I energy fight, and I do both at the same time. As far as I'm concerned pure angles fighting is very much like an arcade game, you stay at your best corner speed, apply flaps if applicable, work the ACM's for snapshot angles and voila, that's it. Not a whole lot to concern yourself with, there's you, there's your adversary, simply work him for a gunnery solution before he does the same to you and you win. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, I know better, I'm  just saying it doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, forethought, expansive awareness or tactical analysis.

Energy fighting properly (not just BnZ), on the other hand, requires a far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills. You must have situational awareness that spans the entire arena down to your gun range at all times. You must have precise tactical awareness, by this I mean knowledge of all enemy and friendly plane's E/alt states, vectors and likely intentions within your visual range and even beyond to local dot dar range. You must have patience, discipline, good aim and a very good grasp of ACM's, especially some of the more complex ACM's that are not as immediately obvious as are those most often employed in strictly angle's fighting scenario's where the goal is to simply cut the corner, ride the edge of a stall and get lead for a snap-shot or tracking shot.


Zazen

To say that Energy fighting requires "far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills" and Angles fighting does not, is a load of crap.

To be successful in any situation both styles require the same 'mental skills' as you put it.  And to say that SA isn't as important in an Angles fight again is sheer folly.  If anything, SA is far more important in an Angles fight than in Energy fight situation, especially in a furball.  A pilot that is a pure E fighter can get away with momentary lapses of SA, where as an Angles fighter, a momentary lapse of SA will usually result in their death.

And your assertion that 99% of the "E fighters" were former Angles fighters that grew bored has no merit since you do not have any numbers to back it up.  Just because you get a couple of pilots agreeing with you does not make it a fact.  I'd venture to say that the majority of veteran pilots that like to Angles fight were former E fighters that grew bored and wanted more of a challenge.  It was the case with me.  My first year of playing online flight sims was spent in the FW190-A8 before switching over to the P-38.



ack-ack

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
To say that Energy fighting requires "far more diverse set of skills, especially mental skills" and Angles fighting does not, is a load of crap.

To be successful in any situation both styles require the same 'mental skills' as you put it.  And to say that SA isn't as important in an Angles fight again is sheer folly.  If anything, SA is far more important in an Angles fight than in Energy fight situation, especially in a furball.  A pilot that is a pure E fighter can get away with momentary lapses of SA, where as an Angles fighter, a momentary lapse of SA will usually result in their death.




ack-ack

Total hogwash, if you screw up your SA/TA in an E fighter you're dead, if you cannot get seperation you are dead, period. If you screw up your SA/TA in an angles fighter you can, if you're any good, use your superior turnrate to stay defensive for long periods and perhaps prevail. You have to be ALOT more carefull in a plane that manuevers poorly. While an E fighter may be faster, ANYTHING higher than you can be faster than you plenty long enough to kill you. Whereas in an angles fighter if you have superior turn performance you will maintain that superioity regardless of the number, altitude, location or plurality of your opposition.

Superior manueverability not speed is the ultimate DEFENSIVE weapon in air combat. Speed is the ultimate OFFENSIVE weapon in air combat. Speed is relative, turnrate is absolute.

For example, A Tyhpoon is faster than a Spit right? Put that spit 5k above the Typhoon near the ground, who has the potential to be faster now? The Typhoon has lost his only advantage so can neither out-run nor out-manuever the Spit.

Ok, now take the same Typhoon and Spit, the Spit easily outturns the Typhoon right ? Can you think of any situation where the Typhoon could potentially outturn the Spit? Nope, there is none, the Typhoon cannot take away the Spitfire's advantage in any hypothetical situation.

The Spit has an absolute advantage, the Typhoon only a relative and conditional advantage. This subtle, underlying,  truth about the dichotomous enigma of angles vs. energy has enormous ramifications on tactics.

Angles fighters are for more forgiving of mistakes, especially mental ones involving SA and TA. You make an error in energy estimation in an E fighter and you're history, you have no recourse once you are at an energy disadvantage against an opponent with superior manueverability. You make that same error in an angles fighter and you just pull some G's, spoil his shot and work the angles back to neutral or for an advantage and a guns solution. An angles fighter never loses his intrinsic manueverability advantage, an energy fighter can lose its speed advantage very easily.


Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13 The Spit has an absolute advantage, the Typhoon only a relative and conditional advantage. This subtle, underlying, truth about the dichotomous enigma of angles vs. energy has enormous ramifications on tactics.

With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit.  If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill.  The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.

So no, the Spit does not enjoy an absolute advantage.

-- Todd/Leviathn