Soem background info for the upcoming election...

[WhiteHawk]

no, I'm saying if he had help, how does that in any way effect today's situation or our past actions.  Once again, its not IF he had help it is WHO helped him?

And the 'pulled' thing.  OK, that is a good point.  I guess it can mean that but, evacuated would be a bit less confusing.
  So, I'll grant you that neither one of us can argue what he really mean or didnt mean.  Just make sure we scrutinize the convicting bin laden tape as harshely.  Does he speak English?

By the way there was no jet fuel in building 7 and the  building came down due to fires?   Never before seen on modern skyscraper.  Hmmm..I imagine the insurance companies are going to rewrite the book on skyscraper construction.
  Did you notice how the building came down so precisely?  Hmmm,  an office fire melted the supports on every side of the  buidling at exactly the same moment or it wouldve fallen sideways.  What luck.  I guess if it hadnt fallen so perfectly, the word pulled wouldnt mean anything to anybody.

Anyway, you have riased a reasonable doubt in my mind about that issue, and give you the arguemnt.  There is more, are you interested?

[Martlet]

its not IF he had help it is WHO helped him?

I don't know if he had help or not.  Again, what's your point?  Should we have done something differently?

So, I'll grant you that neither one of us can argue what he really mean or didnt mean.

Sure I can.  He was asked that question and explained himself.  FEMA agreed.

By the way there was no jet fuel in building 7 and the building came down due to fires? Never before seen on modern skyscraper.

You've never seen a skyscraper burn?  Watch the news sometime.

Did you notice how the building came down so precisely? Hmmm, an office fire melted the supports on every side of the buidling at exactly the same moment or it wouldve fallen sideways.

Yep, I noticed.  I also noticed the other buildings come straight down, too.  Of the three buildings I saw video of falling that day, all three of them fell straight down.  Two of them I SAW burning.  I guess that's how burning sky scrapers of that design fall.

There is more, are you interested?

Sure.  Post whatever you want.  I'm not one to buy most conspiracy theories, though.  That's a liberal trait.  I'll have fun poking holes in them for you.

[WhiteHawk]

Off topic

[Martlet]

There aren't many skyscraper fires, period.  However, recent collapses include one in Hunan Province, China and Cairo.  Both this year.

More to the point, though, is the fact that there were over 40,000 gallons of generator fuel at building 7.   You haven't seemed to factor that into your conspiracy theory.

Question: What authority does Mr silverstein have over the rescue personel and firefighters?

Absolutely none.  It is, however, his building.  He gave the ok.  More directly, what authority would he have to demolish it without the necessary permits?

Question: was mr silverstien inside building #7 to check the condition of the building? If so, was he qualified to make the decision to evacuate the building as the wounded be left for dead? If they knew there were no wounded what were the rescue personnel doing in there?

You don't seem to have researched this very much.  He was not in the building.  He was receiving reports from rescue personel who were trying to save his building.  No one was killed when it collapsed.  There were no people trapped in it.  The only rescue workers in the building were trying to contain the blaze.  His comment about too many lives lost today was making note that the building was heavily damaged and it wasn't worth the risk of lives to try and save it.

Burning skyscrapers arent supposed to fall at all. The fact the the first 3 modern skyscrapers that ever fell due to fire fell in the same day is a little odd, isnt it

Odd?  You think it's odd?  They had freaking jets flown into them.  What's odd is they didn't crumble immediately.  It's amazing to me how daft some people are.  The lengths you go to trying to support your whacked out theory is simply astonishing.

[FUNKED1]

Off topic

[Eagler]

Personal attack

[WhiteHawk]

Personal attack

[Eagler]

Personal attack

[lazs2]

Off topic

[GRUNHERZ]

So you are trying to convince us that Bush is in bed with the Saudis, especially the Bin Ladens.. And vthat they habe some special friendship.. OK...

And you are also hinting that Bush did something fishy about the 911 attacks and, as you said, without evidence blamed the attack on who of all people in the world, a Bin Laden?

Hmm..  Isn't that strange?

You see WhiteHawk, little problems like that are what make people doubt your sanity...

[Ripsnort]

Off topic

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you are trying to convince us that Bush is in bed with the Saudis, especially the Bin Ladens.. And vthat they habe some special friendship.. OK...

iI just quoted the Wall street Journal, who alledgedly , quoted a Bush aide shortly after the attacks.  Youre the one who has drawn that conclusion.  
  I know better than to offer my opinions on the subject, I am a paranoid psyho.  You, an the other hand, are all to eager to tell me what my opinion needs to be, in order to justify your beliefs.
  This is quite normal and expected.   Discredit the messanger.  
  Of course I am not in any position to determine the relationship with the Bush's and Saudia Arabia.  I couldnt give a rats arse.  They both do oil, and it wouldnt surprise me if they have some kind of business relationship.  What does that prove?  Nothing.  Thats why I discarded the information until eagler brought it.  He pointed it out in his multiple choice question above.  I got it right, he got it wrong.

[Martlet]

If you don't care about it, why do you keep bringing it up?

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
By the way there was no jet fuel in building 7 and the building came down due to fires? Never before seen on modern skyscraper.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You've never seen a skyscraper burn? Watch the news sometime.

See what I mean there martlet,  I say '..and the building came down due to fires..?'  You say, 'Youve never seen a skyscraper burn?  Watch the news sometime.'  You hole poker you;)

let me simplify the question, 'Martlet, if you want to poke a hole in my story, find me a skyscraper that has collapsed from fire?'  Your ball.
Try to make it a relatively modern one, at least 1950+.  

Another point about building #7  after listeinign to Mr silverstien again he says, "There has been such tremendous loss of life today, maybe the best thing to do would be to pull it, and we all watched the building collapse."  
   You say, he meant evacuate the building of rescue personel and firefighters or I guess theis is the FEMA report...
  Question:  What authority does Mr silverstein have over the rescue personel and firefighters?  
  Question:  was mr silverstien inside building #7 to check the condition of the building?  If so, was he qualified to make the decision to evacuate the building as the wounded be left for dead?  If they knew there  were no wounded what were the rescue personnel doing in there?

You ask what is my point if he help or not?  If he had help, then it is a conspiracy, and , god willing, the guilty be brought to trial.  Does anybody else care who did it?  I bet so.


You guess thats how burning skyscrapers of that design fall???!!
Burning skyscrapers arent supposed to fall at all.    The fact the the first 3 modern skyscrapers that ever fell due to fire fell in the same day is a little odd, isnt it?  Yea I know, 2 of em were hit by airplanes, those two falling wouldnt be odd, if wasnt for the 3rd one falling, but remember, none of these buildings officially fell due to the impact of the aircraft, they all fell from fire officially.

I earned a degree in fire science in Honolulu Hawaii well before 9/11.  Honolulu has its fair share of high rises, so we studied all kinds of fires including tall structures.  The program included a building construction class, of which the primary focus was learning to recognize when a structure was at risk of collapse.  If there is one thing that I recall about my studies of building construction and collapse, it is that buildings of all types and sizes can and will collapse from structural damage caused by fire.  Its not a matter of can a tall building collapse from fire, its when it will collapse and can the fire be put out before it get close to that point.  Direct fire impingement on steel structural members can cause collapse in as little time as 15 minutes.  Structural steel is coated with fire protective foam to help prevent the steel from reaching temperatures where it can become soft in a fire.  This foam, however, can deteriorate or break off over time or burn away in a fire.  It would be insane to build skyscrapers the way we do today without fire sprinkler systems, without them skyscraper collapse would not be all that uncommon (except that we probably wouldn’t build them anymore in the first place).  Fire officers are trained to recognize and predict building collapse; it is usually the biggest concern at any structure fire.  The fire officers at the WTC should have pulled their crews long before the towers fell; the towers lasted longer than should have been expected.  Building seven was in serious threat of collapse; the integrity of the foam insulation and sprinkler systems had to be considered.  Building seven had also withstood the force of debris from the two massive towers collapsing near it.  The New York Fire Department had just had the greatest reminder in our history of how costly building collapse can be.  They didn’t want to, and didn’t need to, risk any more lives unnecessarily.  

Quite often, clearing out and letting a building fall is by far the safest thing to do.

After reading portions of this thread I did a search and found a few articles that make similar claims; that something fishy happened with building seven.  I also found that many New York Firefighters and other “experts’ were surprised that the twin towers collapsed from fire and suspect otherwise.  I’m baffled that their studies differed so much from mine.  Just because no major skyscraper had collapsed from fire, does not mean that it is not very possible.  Countless smaller steel buildings have collapsed from fire.  Several tests have been conducted that show that steel beams can give way in as little as 15 minutes of direct fire impingement.  When I turned on the TV on 9/11 and saw towers burning, I expected them to fall.  They actually lasted a bit longer than I expected.  Once again, I was trained to expect severely burned buildings to fall.

I read the FEMA report on building seven and find it to be a reasonable account.  
The articles that contradicted the FEMA report contain many ideas that are borderline silly.

eskimo

[Thrawn]

WhiteHawk, are you going to source the damn quotes or are you just shooting a bunch of hot air?