Poland?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda are you upset that the USSR ened?

Yes I am.

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that former USSR states broke off?

Some of them. I hate that half of my family are foreigners now. But I don't like nationalists who want to take all the former republics back.

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the cold war ended?

No. But it didn't end

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that communism has been proven to be a complete faiure?

Yes I am upset. We have to blame bolsheviks for this. Communism is a positive, creative ideology, bolshevism isn't.

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the Berlin Wall fell and that Germany was reuinited?

I don't care.

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Are you upset that the old Soviet satelites like Poland are no longer so bound to moscow?

I don't care. Definetly not upset about it.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Mr Pavel Pavlov I had provide a link to the actual Red Russian order for the excution of the polish Officers in a memo from  Beria to Stalin with this link

Truth is always better to argue with than lies…


http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif

"….Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kagan"ovich, both favoring execution…..."

Take a long look at this document… it’s the smoking gun.

Mark Kmiecik

PS... NO Secrets now, with the world wide web of the third Millennium.

Also, GOD Bless Poland and those that died  keeping the dream of Poland alive and bringing its dream to the map of the world and to it's release from the yoke of russian domination.
 
... from a lost son of Poland and a fredom loving American...

No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".

Read it.

Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.

Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.

CIA is the most reliable source for such documents

This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.

But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Dude, Poles are good in my book.  They have the balls to fight when other people surrender.


like this one time when france surrendered in record time, and Poland charged German Tanks with cavalry.


Any group of people that does this has my respect forever.

Actually they did not charge tanks with a cavalry.  But the Allies sure screwed them over good.   Long live the 303 Squadron.  You downed more planes than any other RAF squadron nd were a Polish squadron who also got screwed over by the British.  You weren't even invited to the Victory Parade in 1946.  

Karaya

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Boroda
No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".

Read it.

Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.

Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.

CIA is the most reliable source for such documents

This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.

But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.

who?
marsians biciclist together with crazy and deadly hare krishna guys

Whole free world know since 60 years but  Boroda not

[Boroda]

Originally posted by ramzey
who?
marsians biciclist together with crazy and deadly hare krishna guys

Whole free world know since 60 years but  Boroda not

Better say - for 61 years, since goebbels used it in his propaganda.

Several European specialists who participated in nazi "investigation" later joined Burdenko comission and said that they were forced to sign nazi reports because they threatened their families.

So far Burdenko's report is the last and only reliable source of data about Katyn'.

What I really hate is "opinions" and "facts" that "everyone knows". Most of the things that "everyone knows" are lies. Especially when it's known by the "whole free world".

[Chitownflyer]

Originally posted by Boroda
No secrets. Sure. Every time someone shows me this fake "document".

Read it.

Names of Kalinin and Kaganovich with a remark that they voted "pro" execution.

Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov and Mikoyan signed across the paper, meaning they voted against this.

CIA is the most reliable source for such documents

This fakes and the whole Katyn story were researched in a book called "Katynskiy detektiv" by Yuri Muchin. If you skip all the reasoning about "corrupt Polish government" and all the anti-Polish crap - you'll see the complete proof that it was Germans who killed poor Poles.

But, again, I have to say that I don't know who killed that Polish officers. I don't want to think that it was Soviets.

Frankly, I think your contention that the Germans killed the Poles at Katyn and your contention that the Russian NKVD had nothing to do with the massacre is quite honestly (which is now widely recognized by most "enlightened" Russian historians that it was indeed  the NKVD, acting under Stalin's direct orders which the massacre at Katyn was carried out and covered up by his henchmen) is for want of a better word…BULL-****.

You can say fake, you can say it didn't happen, you can say it was the Germans.. etc… but the massive piles of actual historical documents and testimony by eye witnesses, points to the fact indeed Stalin's NKVD killed those brave men as well as carted off Tens of Thousands of Polish citizens to their deaths in the cold Siberian hell of Stalin's reeducation camps.

Russians needs to recognized and reconcile the fact that Russia does not rule over Poland any more and has absolutely no sovereign claims over it.  Further more, Russia's brutal communalist rule and the attempt of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and ideas by past Russian rulers will never be forgotten by the world should never be tolerated again.  

Only when Russians become more enlighten and recognized that to move forward they must except the truth of Russia's horrific past, only then they can be free and take a place at the table of civilized nations and take part of the fruits of being a civilized nation.

You attitude, if is reflective of the majority of ordinary Russians thinking, well that day is still wanting.


Mark Kmiecik

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Frankly, I think your contention that the Germans killed the Poles at Katyn and your contention that the Russian NKVD had nothing to do with the massacre is quite honestly (which is now widely recognized by most "enlightened" Russian historians that it was indeed  the NKVD, acting under Stalin's direct orders which the massacre at Katyn was carried out and covered up by his henchmen) is for want of a better word…BULL-****.

I try to study the facts. Your only argument is your blind faith that Russians are monsters and "barbarians". "Document" you provided is a well-known fake.

Yes, 10000 Poles shot from German weapons and buried in a recreation park where thousands of citizens spent their free time in 1940. It doesn't make you think. Why use your brain when on TV they said it was evil Jewish bolsheviks?..

Originally posted by Chitownflyer
You can say fake, you can say it didn't happen, you can say it was the Germans.. etc… but the massive piles of actual historical documents and testimony by eye witnesses, points to the fact indeed Stalin's NKVD killed those brave men as well as carted off Tens of Thousands of Polish citizens to their deaths in the cold Siberian hell of Stalin's reeducation camps.

Yes. Blame the Russians. Keep on kicking the dead lion who saved you from nazis.

Piles of "historical documents" turn into lame fakes, witnesses don't know Polish language, etc. Just think of how many forces were (and still are) interested in our nations hating each other

Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Russians needs to recognized and reconcile the fact that Russia does not rule over Poland any more and has absolutely no sovereign claims over it.  Further more, Russia's brutal communalist rule and the attempt of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and ideas by past Russian rulers will never be forgotten by the world should never be tolerated again.  

Yes, we refused from all "souverign rule" over Poland after 1918. If we studied one history of one planet - Russia/USSR never claimed any souverignity over Poland since 1918.

Elimination of Polish culture? Poland had much more independance from Russia then any other part of the Empire. Polish cirizens of the Empire worked in science and government, some of the abilities that Empire gave them were impossible for "independant" Poland.

BTW, do you know that Poland was divided between Russia, Germany and Austria? What about Germans? Or last 50 years od cold war made you think that only Russians are "evil barbarians" and Germans came in 1939 to help Polish people fight them? Maybe we didn't have to throw them away from Poland if you hate us so much and love them?...

Originally posted by Chitownflyer
Only when Russians become more enlighten and recognized that to move forward they must except the truth of Russia's horrific past, only then they can be free and take a place at the table of civilized nations and take part of the fruits of being a civilized nation.

You attitude, if is reflective of the majority of ordinary Russians thinking, well that day is still wanting.

We have heroic and brilliant past. Just as any other nation. As for me - I don't want my country to "take a place at the table of civilized nations". This bloody "civilized" nations killed millions of my compatriots in last 1000 years. My own family fought with this "civilized" bastards for generations. We don't need any "civilization" with swords and "democracy" with cruise missiles. Poland have joined an agressive military alliance aimed against my country, and gives support for agressors. I sincerely hope that our history will finally be peacefull and no conflicts will be provoked by new "friends" of Poland. Peace.

Please remember how many Poles and Russians had to die for some alien foreign interests in last 500-1000 years. Let's live by ourselves, and mind our own lives.

[airguard]

Originally posted by fd ski
I live in poland, if you have any serious questions, I'll be happy to field them.

As for Poland being a supporter in "war on terror" in Iraq
I assure you it wasn't a popular decision here, likely next election it will become a large issue. I doubt if withdrawal is likely, as we are too proud in military terms to live with impression of running away

Economy is ****, agreed, however, Sandman, if western allies didn't sell on the plate whole eastern europe in 1944 to a known mass murderer, it prabably wouldn't have been so.
Yes, it wasn't realistic to do anything about it at that point, however we still live with the consequences of that decision today. You had 50 years to develop, we had 50 years to keep moving back.

However, it seems that our old enemies, Germans, are now happy to help us dig ourselves out of the hole that we were left in, in 1945. They literaly pushed Poland into EU last year and helped it all along the way.

I'm ashamed at the way we repay them.  But that's whole another topic.

good post fd ski, and I hope the ignorant rats that harrass your country now get the loving hamburger in the wrong pipe and choke.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Bodhi
If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.

We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.

Yep.  I'm part Polish.  I even had the luxury of meeting fd ski at last years con (He'd remember me as Karaya2).   Churchill and Roosevelt LIED for 5 years.   I won't even begin to speak about Stalin, he isn't worth it.

Karaya

[Chitownflyer]

As I had said before, I'm what they would call a "Highlander". My Grandparents lived in Tarnow and saw with their own eyes and stood witness, in 1915 what the Imperial Russian army did as they swept across Galicia, (Małopolska) and then got pushed back.  My Grandparents had no love for Russia and for good reason.  Also I have a working knowledge of Polish history, particularly aware of the fact Poland was partitioned in 1793 with Prussia ( Germany), Russia, and the Imperial Hapsburg Empire each taking a piece and each ruling it's piece with a iron hand with polices of the systematic elimination of Polish culture and language. I'm aware that it was after the first war, with the Russia in civil war between the White Russians, under  Kolchak, Denikin, and with Trotsky leading the Bolsheviks.  This was chance for 2nd Republic of Poland to be born.
Under the leadership of polish leader  Jozef Pilsudski Poland was able to beat back the Bolsheviks and prevent them from subjugating Poland and the rest of Europe under the jack boot of Lenin /Stalin rule of terror in a workers paradise were the rule of law was out of a barrel of a gun and were any disagreement could get you thrown in a train heading to a Gulag in Siberia where your days would be long and painful and life very cold and short.
I can recite more history ad nauseam,  but the point is that any honest study of Russian and Polish history will show that Russian influence and rule has not been good for Poland and Poland, IMHO the Polish should fight to the last soul if Russia or that matter Germany or any other country should ever invade it again.  
If Russia behaves and doesn't try to expand outside it's current borders, then it should have nothing to fear as any peaceful, enlighten government with rule of law instead,  (Considering the Russian mob influences much of Russian current political life its interesting if Russia doesn't full in another dictatorship) then there will be peace.  If, IMHO I was the Polish leadership, I would  always be watching East and I would never let my Saber get dull and rusty for in the end The Russian soul only understand the point of a Saber.

Mark Kmiecik

[ramzey]

nm

[bikekil]

Funny thing is Euro goverments (i stay away from judging people!! all involved) saying that we are too friendly to USA and we should better watch who we are playing with. Then USA is of course friendly but it's hard to say it's supporting us (as i could say your best friend in Europe, except GB,  but don't get me wring here, still talking about goverments not people here).

That's just funny as it's allways a politics game It's not sad or anything... just the life.

...hmmm... maybe once we are removed from EU for supporting USA, Bush could add us as another american state?

[Red Tail 444]

I've been to Poland a few times, and the notion that a diploma is worthless to them is complete BS. One of my friends parents worked for the UN, and when they returned, it was difficult to find work because they didn't keep up on their reading.

I think that when Poles study and work in the US they have a much better work ethic than our students do, in general. Probably because they understand the value of higher education, and working for their pay, and not getting it via an allowance from mom and dad.

I personally know of no Poles who prefer communism. You worked, sure, but you gave most of that back to the Union. Not to mention the penalties for seeming to have more than the guy next door.

Less of a country. What a bunch of tools some of you are....

[TheDudeDVant]

And even after all in this thread, all the Poland talk in the debate, after all the goodwill wished upon Poland, Poland is pulling outta Iraqi.. It seems the Poles wanna do 'hard work' at home. They cant really be blamed though..

[bikekil]

Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
And even after all in this thread, all the Poland talk in the debate, after all the goodwill wished upon Poland, Poland is pulling outta Iraqi.. It seems the Poles wanna do 'hard work' at home. They cant really be blamed though..

Not sure about the source of your information, however as i see it in the news here - a minister said something, got spanked by the prime minister who said  that, of course we are discussing everything with our allies and everything is possible, but there is no way of speaking about a date of withdrawal and there is no way we are just quit and leave  our allies there. that's also something i head our President said, so as i take it,

there is  a political game aboutr the iraq (you should know it from your side as well) and some folks are using it agaist other folks who represend another opinion, that's the life, but...

As a person i wish we will keep our guys there as long as they are needed, no metter how much our alies love us or don't  care about us. I believe it's a right thing to do.

I also believe that this or any future goverment here won't pull out from iraq  because we got no contracts or so... but you shoul drealise that i can speak for myself, but our prime minister so as your president or whoever is doing his job... so the situation is - if he will get something he could use for his politicasl stuff he will support things... just the life