Author Topic: Ahh that's better...  (Read 2155 times)

Offline pellik

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« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2004, 03:22:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SFCHONDO
I have to disagree that most that have switched did it due to the ENY. Overall the numbers are down, due to alot of players leaving the game or not playing near as much. Most due to them not liking the ENY thing. Most that have switched did it for personal reasons more than ENY limiter. Like the JB's

I could care less about the ENY thing one way or another due to it rearly effects me. I don't agree with it, but can put up with it. I personnally don't think any country; based on their numbers should get something extra or something less than the other 2 countries. If numbers is an issue, then the community as a whole should correct it, not HT.


Yet I notice the numbers on the knights and bish seems to be up. Some people switched countrys because of the ENY limiter, more switched because of the attention the ENY limiter brings to the problems an unbalance in country numbers has on the arena.

The first few weeks of the ENY limiter didn't seem to have any effect, except for the whines on the forum here about not getting to fly packs of ponys, but the first time I saw rooks at even numbers with knights and bish on their sunday squad night I noticed that within an hour more then half the rook horde quit. Was this some sort of mass protest against even odds? Or is it just that all those pilots individually don't really want to fight, but just to cruise around with a pack and feel badass. Maybe there was a problem, and the low rook numbers now are part of the game's healing process.

-pellik

Offline Killjoy2

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« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2004, 03:26:30 PM »
For bubbaj6
quote "Umm, the only time your plane choice is limited is when you have a numbers advantage hence one part of the usual argument is simply not true, a lie, a bit of selective truthtelling, and/or bogus. "

Here's the set up.

1) Rooks are down to 25 bases.

2) Bishnits are only attacking Rooks because they are the underdog.

3) rooks have 100, nits have 130, bish have 80.

ENY punishes Rooks because bish have fewer numbers.  Nits enjoy a considerable numbers lead but ENY still punishes Rooks.  

Anytime Rooks get numbers to fight out of a corner Rooks get punished even if both countries are jumping on the underdog.

It's been said that HTC won't set up a punishment system in AH but if this isn't punishment, I don't know what is.
========================

Lets not compare this with when rooks had numbers.  ENY changed the rules and makes comparisons false.  ENY cripples any countries ability to fight their way out of a hole instead of helping.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2004, 08:56:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And the "southern exposure" theory some used to explain why B&K were ganging the Rooks goes out the window on this map reset too. Rooks in the NE corner, still getting ganged, still has the fewest bases, still gets ENY'd when they have enough people to counterbalance this behavior - week after week after week.

I ain't flying, but I do peek in and survey the map just to see if the behavior has changed. And it hasn't. Which makes most posts I see about "fairness and balance" next to meaningless.

They would have a lot more credability if more people who weren't Rooks agreed that the number fields should be part of the ENY calculation - so that sides that are down can counter-attack effectively. But no ... it's "fine now" because without that modification it lets the B&K preserve their advantage when numbers shift. It keeps the side that's ganged up on down longer.

I can't decide if some of you just can't see the big picture or are just so selfish that you won't enterain any idea which could reduce your chance of victory. I'm not singling anyone out either - just the general trend of posting has been very corrosive to the community. Starting with the "Fly another plane, Princess" crap directed at Rooks the day ENY went into force - it was your B&K countrymen with comments like that which reinforced the notion that ENY was put in place to hurt Rooks.

And obviously a good many folks posting here (from all sides) do get the big picture and have agreed with further balancing improvements. But just as with our oh so wunnerful US government, as long as the MA balance issue continues to be handled with partisan politics, it will never really get any better.


Dok,

I do agree that there could be some more parameters added to the ENY limiter, but at the same time, I totally disagree with your assement of the gameplay problems ... so I must be an exception to your rule.

Your constant insistence that the Bish and Knights are ganging up on the Rooks due to some sort of unspoken alliance and partisan politics play a role, is complete conjecture on your part.

Your observations are based on your very limited and short-time return to AH. I have been playing consistenly for almost 3 years now and I would believe that it is you who doesn't see the big picture.

Again, I do beleive that the ENY limiter could be tweaked some more, but at the same time, whatever tweaking the HT could do, would not change "gameplay" and your ficticious alliance of B&K against the Rooks.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2004, 09:02:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Killjoy2
For bubbaj6
quote "Umm, the only time your plane choice is limited is when you have a numbers advantage hence one part of the usual argument is simply not true, a lie, a bit of selective truthtelling, and/or bogus. "

Here's the set up.

1) Rooks are down to 25 bases.

2) Bishnits are only attacking Rooks because they are the underdog.

3) rooks have 100, nits have 130, bish have 80.

ENY punishes Rooks because bish have fewer numbers.  Nits enjoy a considerable numbers lead but ENY still punishes Rooks.  

Anytime Rooks get numbers to fight out of a corner Rooks get punished even if both countries are jumping on the underdog.

It's been said that HTC won't set up a punishment system in AH but if this isn't punishment, I don't know what is.
========================

Lets not compare this with when rooks had numbers.  ENY changed the rules and makes comparisons false.  ENY cripples any countries ability to fight their way out of a hole instead of helping.


Well I remember, not too long ago, that the Rooks claimed that their constant success was due to superior strategy and not numbers.

If that is the case, then the Rooks should be able to fight out of the hole with superior numbers and lesser plane cause they are so strategically superior.

Hint ... the JUG is a very dangerous plane ... moreso than the P-51.

Hint ... the La-5 is as close to an La-7 that one could get.

Hint ... the Spit V is a very deadly plane.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2004, 09:27:41 AM »
SlapShot,

I've been dealing with the psychology of this genre since 1987 (and, no, I ain't a shrink). As such, there are behavior trends I expect to see in response to events and changes in the game itself.

Truces can be overt, implied, or the product of group-think. I posted elsewhere that I expect to see the side which booms on an overlapping squad night (a'la RJO) to get ganged the following nights as "pay back." That's a group-think truce. And it more or less self-balances the arena as any gains from the boom night are retaken the following nights. (Working together against the boom is an implied truce.)

But now we have a situation where the boom night is difused and a truce of any kind is rewarded as the side in the hole can't get out nearly as easily thanks to ENY. So a group-think truce now becomes part of the normal behavior - because it's easier for others to "win" (for some twisted definition of "winning") that way.

On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.

The southern-exposure theory has now been proven false on this map reset. It may have been true at one point, but something else has changed and the attack vector now is aimed by politics instead of the compass.

When ENY kicked in it was "Fly another plane, Princess" to the Rooks. What's hilarious is that now when Rooks complain that they're in the hole and ENY keeps 'em there, I see B&K say things here like "get more organized." That's rich - cuz if they did that in the first place ENY wouldn't have been needed.

What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage. And that's a completely different thing. Which isn't to say balancing code is a bad idea. But it's being taken advantage of and since this favors 2/3 of the player base I guess the remaining 1/3 can just take it or leave. How's that for balance?

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2004, 10:24:54 AM »
DoKGonZo,

I explicitly disagree that base numbers should be factored into the ENY Limiter.

If they were resets would become nigh impossible.  Base ownership is about gameplay, not a basic level of competition such as team size.
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2004, 10:38:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
SlapShot,

I've been dealing with the psychology of this genre since 1987 (and, no, I ain't a shrink). As such, there are behavior trends I expect to see in response to events and changes in the game itself.

Truces can be overt, implied, or the product of group-think. I posted elsewhere that I expect to see the side which booms on an overlapping squad night (a'la RJO) to get ganged the following nights as "pay back." That's a group-think truce. And it more or less self-balances the arena as any gains from the boom night are retaken the following nights. (Working together against the boom is an implied truce.)

But now we have a situation where the boom night is difused and a truce of any kind is rewarded as the side in the hole can't get out nearly as easily thanks to ENY. So a group-think truce now becomes part of the normal behavior - because it's easier for others to "win" (for some twisted definition of "winning") that way.

On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.

The southern-exposure theory has now been proven false on this map reset. It may have been true at one point, but something else has changed and the attack vector now is aimed by politics instead of the compass.

When ENY kicked in it was "Fly another plane, Princess" to the Rooks. What's hilarious is that now when Rooks complain that they're in the hole and ENY keeps 'em there, I see B&K say things here like "get more organized." That's rich - cuz if they did that in the first place ENY wouldn't have been needed.

What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage. And that's a completely different thing. Which isn't to say balancing code is a bad idea. But it's being taken advantage of and since this favors 2/3 of the player base I guess the remaining 1/3 can just take it or leave. How's that for balance?


Dok,

I recognize your longevity in this genre and as a result, your posts are read by me with all seriousness, but on the other hand, it does not automatically validate your points and/or observations.

Here is my take ...

Prior to ENY, there was a tremendous imbalance and it was the Rooks that enjoyed the over abundance of players. A year or so ago, the Rooks were in the hole and in a big way. This forced the Rooks to get organized, and along with some switching by squads in both the Knights and Bish, helped swing the pendulum and get them out of the hole.

For a long period of time, things were pretty even, but somewhere along the line, and I can't put a time period on it, the Rooks gained much more strength and it came with "numbers".

Prior to ENY be instituted, there were MANY whines/post that the Rooks were hording and running amok on the maps. Many a Rook responded to these claims stating that it really wasn't the numbers, but their more effective/superior communication and organizational/strategic skills. This pissed alot of people off, so this is probably why you won't get much sympathy from people who were not Rooks during this timeframe which does support your quote ...

On top of which, the self-righteous justification that Rooks "always had overwhelming numbers" makes it easier to carry this behavior forward and feel ok in doing so.

Now that the ENY has taken the numbers away from them, they seem to be confused and their organization has gone out the window and is fractured. To me, this validates the ENY action. Take the numbers advantage away, and the Rooks are really no different than any other country.

The Southern-Exposure theory is not false. There are always exceptions, and you have witnessed a couple of them, but for all intents and purposes, the theory will always be more true than false.

I can theorize that the country that enjoys the west in Mindano will never be reset ... in the 3 years that I have been here, I have only see it reset ONCE ... so that theory will be more true than false, but there is always a chance that it will be false.

I haven't flown in the past few days, but I too was surprised, to see the Knights push northward into Rook territory. What also surprised me was the level of organization that the Knights have displayed lately. I can assure you that this has not been the norm for the Knights for quite some time. Why all of a sudden ? .. It could be due to the fact that some who have switched, have brought new and fresh feelings to the Knights which has spurned a new or revived level of organization. Take my word for it ... very very rarely does the southern country ever push north and win.

What all this tells me is that balance wasn't the desired result by the pro-ENY camp - it was to take away someone else's advantage.

I am a card carrying member of the pro-ENY camp, and I can assure you that it is balance that I wanted, and it truely did take away an advatange ... the numbers advantage.

With that eliminated from the MA, what is left over, at this point in time, is the deep set animosity that the Bish and Knights developed towards the Rooks. This is your "payback" scenario and that is why you see "Fly another plane, Princess" or "get more organized" responses ... had the Rook posters had not been so smug when appeals were made for balance, maybe things might be different. They basically made their own bed ... you know the rest. Animosity is something, I believe, that HTC can't fix with coding changes or ENY tweaking.

I personally attack both the Bish and Rooks, it all depends upon where the fights are (non-hording fights) and where the attacks are coming from. I also do believe that there are some more tweaks that could be made to the ENY limiter.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2004, 10:39:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
DoKGonZo,

I explicitly disagree that base numbers should be factored into the ENY Limiter.

If they were resets would become nigh impossible.  Base ownership is about gameplay, not a basic level of competition such as team size.


I thought the map was getting reset every week again. If so, who cares about forced resets.

I seem to recall that there was some agreement that one side getting backed up week after week was "no fun." HT even changed the reset threshhold for this reason. But I guess it's OK for some people to be backed up to their last few bases week after week as long as other people can get their resets.

And if team size isn't about gameplay, why was ENY put in?

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2004, 10:56:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I thought the map was getting reset every week again. If so, who cares about forced resets.

I seem to recall that there was some agreement that one side getting backed up week after week was "no fun." HT even changed the reset threshhold for this reason. But I guess it's OK for some people to be backed up to their last few bases week after week as long as other people can get their resets.

And if team size isn't about gameplay, why was ENY put in?


I just don't get it !!!

For the sake of arguement lets say this is what we have ...

Bish - 80 pilots - 30 fields

Knights - 100 pilots - 28 fields

Rooks - 160 pilots - 10 fields

In this scenario, the Rooks are backed up to the wall on fields but have the numbers advantage. This then causes the ENY to kick in and  the ...

P-51-D is not available

Spit IX is not available

La-7 is not available

N1K is not available

So, why couldn't the Rooks, who enjoy the numbers advantage attack with ...

P-51-B or any of the P-47 variants ? Very dangerous replacements and in some instances a better replacement.

Spit V ? Really not different than the IX except for flat-out speed.

La-5N ? Not too far off from the La-7.

F-6F ? Most don't realize how effective this plane is. Probably the best all-around plane in the game.

I would think that organized attacks with these planes would be no less effective than attacks using the ones that were eliminated by ENY, and with numbers, makes them even more effective.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2004, 11:09:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
...

I personally attack both the Bish and Rooks, it all depends upon where the fights are (non-hording fights) and where the attacks are coming from. I also do believe that there are some more tweaks that could be made to the ENY limiter.


I generally avoided Sunday nights cuz I hate the Horde ... when ENY went in then it became interesting with the lesser planes. So this "payback" of which you speak is kind of the same deal as ENY in that I (as a relatively new player - at least in this incarnation) am being penalized for a situation I didn't create or contribute to.

Your points make a lot of sense and fill in some of the blanks as far as history goes.

But if I accept your premise that still leaves the impression that even though they got their way, B&K are still dishing out payback to Rooks. So was the goal really to get balance or to get even? Probably both.  

I also think you're confusing loss of numbers with loss of leadership. A lot of the Rooks who griped about ENY ran squads, their complaint was that this disrupted their chosen way of playing the game. When you have squadrons leave that will have a bigger impact on team effectiveness than a similar number of freelancers leaving. And when I say "leave" I mean they're not playing AH2 anymore for any country - they're gone.

2.01 will revitalize the MA (we should rename it the KA for a while) some but the walls which ENY has put up will take many months to tear down.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2004, 11:10:44 AM »
DoKGonZo,

Some people like the reset thing.  To me it makes no difference, I just want to fly and fight.


Personally I would have set the reset threshold higher than HiTech did, say 7 airfields.  I agree that it is no fun to be backed into the corner perpetually.  However, when I last mentioned it, it was the Knights who had been backed into a corner for a week (at least at PST play times) and the response from the Rooks was basically "Yeah?  So?  Why don't you fight your way out while we vulch you?"

Now that you have relatively even numbers you complain?  What would you have been doing were you a Knight at that time?  Shrieking?
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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2004, 11:20:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
I just don't get it !!!

...


OK ... consider this from a Rooks point of view ... maybe one who doesn't read the BBS and know why this is happening.

You have two conditions you fly under - either outnumbered, outbased, but with all planes - or outbased, with numbers, to some degree being ganged (enough that it has upset the southern exposure paradigm), and now penalized on plane selection.

When does this Rook ever feel like he isn't at a disadvantage? You're "losing the war" and when you get enough people to counterattack you get penalized for it.

Even though the La-5, F6F, etc. are great planes - you forgot the Fw190A-5 in there, BTW - you still see you are being penalized in some way.

It's probably more subjective than anything. But no one likes to feel like they're at a disadvantage all the time.

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2004, 11:32:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
....

Now that you have relatively even numbers you complain?  What would you have been doing were you a Knight at that time?  Shrieking?


Don't put words in my mouth. I was very much in favor of raising the reset threshold - and it was put in while the Sunday Horde was still happening.

I also predicted the very complaint we're seeing now about being ENY'd when backed into a corner the day ENY was implemented - before it affected *anyone*. And, back when ENY went in, it was Bish and Knit who were backed into a corner more often than Rooks - so I was *their* advocate in wanting them to not be ENY'd when they had numbers to push back The Horde.

I really do not appreciate being falsely accused of things. Kindly knock it off.

Offline Bubbaj6

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« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2004, 11:37:55 AM »
Killjoy,

Your right, the situation you describe is a tough one.  However it is impossible to correct.  Tomorrow it could be the knights in the situation you describe, or maybe the bish.

The point is that the limiter comes into play when numbers are imbalanced at that moment in time.  It could be that your side is in the hole when you finally get numbers but that is the way it works unfortunately.  On a pure probability scale the scenario you describe is just as likely to happen to any of the three sides at some point.

I know from personal experiences that you are somewhat handicapped when this does take place but all is certainly not lost.  I have done many times what SlapShot is saying.  I have substituted a P-47, P-38, or a Bf-110 for my usual JABO ride.  I have taken a 190 instead of a 51.  Just because you cannot fly your favorite plane does not mean you are totally neutered.  


Also, I would probably go after the Bish if the arena looked like you describe.  At least against them they have less ability to put up a fight and to be in as many places in strength at once.  Going after the Bish instead of the Knights I can also evade some of the potential for horde that the knights have.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2004, 11:53:00 AM »
You have two conditions you fly under - either outnumbered, outbased, but with all planes - or outbased, with numbers, to some degree being ganged (enough that it has upset the southern exposure paradigm), and now penalized on plane selection.

I know you like quotes ...

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Not trying to minimize your concerns ... just adding a little levity and humor.
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