P38 a super plane?

[Dextry]

Tonight in H2H someone started talking about the P38 in WW2. They stated the P38 was the best plane in WW2 from beginning to end in ALL theaters. Then the whole room seemed to agree and it sort of turned into a P38 chat room about how and why the P38 was the "Greatest" plane in WW2. Of course I  don't agree I think the P38 was a great plane in WW2 but was out classed by other fighters, but I don't know a whole lot about the real P38 and how it was used in WW2. Could we get some stories, facts, figures, and data, on what the real P38 could do and did in WW2?

[Flyboy]

it was a good plane.. not a match for the spitfire tho

[bozon]

P38 was a great plane. what some people refuse to realize is that a great plane doesn't mean it's better in every way and in every situation.

P38s suffered from numerous problems during most of their development line. Those problems prevented them from dominating at high altitudes, but were much less significant at low altitude fights. This is why P38 were very successfull in the PTO and MTO. Bottom line is that in the ETO they failed (but there were other reasons for that too, beside preformance)

So, P38s qualities and limitations made it great at certain rolls and an almost failure at others. Pretty much like all other top WWII fighters. It was good -  not superior.

Bozon

[Wolfala]

Paging AKAK

[killnu]

"failed in the ETO"  ?!  tell me you are not serious.

[Wolfala]

The V1710 Timebombs underperformed in the ETO because of BAD GAS (particularly in north africa) - not because of any deficiency of the aircraft.

Its many's opinion though that the ETO guys didn't know how to use it correctly - but who knows. Bong would still roll over in his grave.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by killnu
"failed in the ETO"  ?!  tell me you are not serious.

P-38s didn't fail in the ETO, they were grossly misused by General Hunter and his cronies, some of whom were fired when Doolittle took over in January of 1944.

Nonetheless, there were real problems with the P-38 in terms of mechanical issues.

While the P-38H proved reliable in general, they used a different type of intercooler than later models (it was located in the leading edge of the wing), and these we prone to leaking after repeated warm to very cold thermal cycles. At high altitudes, these intercoolers were inadequate at cooling the intake charge and pilots had to limit MAP to avoid detonation, and the subsequent risk of engine failure. When the P-38Js arrived in late 1943, they had even greater problems with detonation. However, this was caused by cooling the intake charge too much! P-38Js incorporated new intercoolers in a chin intake below the engines. Since the USAAF had informed Lockheed that the P-38 would not likely see service in the ETO, where the P-47 would be the primary fighter (remember, the USAAF thought at this time that the bombers would not require escort fighters), Lockheed engineered the intercoolers for tropical climates. When it was obvious that the 8th AF bombers did require escorts all the way to the target, two P-38 groups were hastily sent to Britain as the P-38 was the only fighter with the range to fly deep into Germany. These missions would be flown at 30,000 feet or higher and every P-38 pilot knew that this was well above the altitude where the cockpit heater was effective.

So, you can imagine the problems encountered by aircraft optimized for medium altitudes in tropical climates flying at extremely high altitudes over Europe in winter.

Pilots were literally frozen in their cockpits. Canopies and windscreens iced over. At cruise settings, engine temperatures would drop below normal operating temps. Overly efficient intercoolers chilled the fuel so much the tetra-ethal lead separated from the base petroleum. As soon as the pilots pushed up the throttles, engines would begin to detonate and often failed. Later it was determined that the intake manifold design was also faulty, causing some cylinders to run excessively lean, adding the risk of detonation. Early P-38Js had only one generator. If that failed, the nearly frozen battery was useless. Above 20,000 feet, fuel boost pumps are required to provide adequate fuel pressure. Without a generator and having a flat battery meant that the engines starved for fuel and pilots had to descend to get the fuel pressure back up.

There were also serious issues with compressibility. At 30k, a P-38 could exceed Mach 0.68 very easily in even a shallow dive. If speeds exceeded Mach 0.75, recovery would be difficult at best.

Turbo regulators were freezing due excessive oil cooling. Overspeeding turbos usually came apart in spectacular fashion.

Adding to these problems was the large workload associated with the P-38.

Suppose the P-38s are cruising at 30k. Power settings are 33 in/MAP at 2,100 rpm with mixtures in auto lean. Suddenly, they spot a large formation of Bf 109s above them and coming down.  

To engage, the P-38 pilot must do the following. Switch the fuel selectors to internal fuel. Select and release drop tanks. Turn on the gunsight and gun warmers. Push both mixture levers into auto rich. Bring the Curtiss Electric props out of cruise pitch. Slowly increase power to MIL power (push up the power before the props and the engines will be damaged, push up power too fast and the engines will detonate and likely fail).

All of this must be done BEFORE they could effectively engage the enemy.

One last factor. Only two Groups of P-38s were available in December of 1943, the 20th and the 55th. While they had a total strength of 70-80 fighters between them, usually only about 60 were available for any given mission. Of these, 15%-20% would be aborts. It was rare for both Groups to get more than a total of 50 fighters into enemy airspace. Facing these 50 fighters were 200-400 Luftwaffe fighters. Yet, despite all the problems, this small group of P-38s not only killed more than they lost, they reduced bomber losses by 50%. Not bad considering that they were tied to the bombers because General Hunter was an advocate of "close escort" tactics. Meanwhile, the USAAF in its infinite wisdom had assigned the first operational P-51B group to the 9th Tactical Air Force. After much yelling and screaming, this unit was "loaned" to the 8th AF.

Adding to the misery was the fact that very few replacement pilots had ever flown the P-38. Some had never even sat in one before they reported to the Groups for duty. Most were trained as P-40 or P-47 pilots. There was little time to train them, they would have to learn on the job. Those that survived the first few missions would usually survive the tour.

When Doolittle took over, he changed priorities. No longer was protecting the bombers the primary mission of the 8th AF Fighter Command. The new orders were to destroy the Luftwaffe where ever it could be found. Close escort was out. Ranging out well ahead of the bombers was in. When fighter groups were relieved of the escort task, they were to return on the deck, with their primary task being to find the Luftwaffe and kill anything in the air or parked on airbases. In this role the P-38 was in its element.

Doolittle also launched an investigation into the woes of the P-38. He discovered the intake manifold problem. He also identified poorly formulated gasolene. Doolittle, who while working for Gulf Oil in the 1930s developed 100+ octane avgas, ordered a custom fuel blend specifically for the P-38s. It proved to be a success. However, the P-51 was proving to be the answer to the 8th AF escort needs. It was easier to fly. It required much less maintenance (only one engine) and offered better combat performance at the altitudes where the bombers flew.

When the P-38L began arriving in the ETO, it found itself without a home. Yet, the P-38L was a different animal altogether. With vastly improved engines, intercoolers and oil coolers designed for cold temperatures and much better cockpit heating, the P-38L was ready for ETO service... Finally. The big L also had dive-recovery flaps, that made high speeds far less dangerous. For the first time, the P-38 had automatic engine controls that greatly reduced pilot workload.

By mid 1944, all P-38s had been transferred to the 9th Tactical AF, where they gave sterling performance. At medium altitudes, the P-38L was more than able to handle anything it would encounter. Kill ratios increased from 2/1 to 6/1 in air to air combat (the P-38 would eventually average 4/1 in the ETO, but did even better in the MTO).

That, in a nutshell is the story of the P-38 in the ETO.

My regards,

Widewing

[Karnak]

Thanks for that summary Widewing.  There is no doubt that the P-38 was one of the great fighters of WWII, but selecting a "best" is really kind of silly.

[Crumpp]

Facing these 50 fighters were 200-400 Luftwaffe fighters.

That is not accurate either.  Only a couple of occasions was the Luftwaffe able to effect mass interceptions.  Gallands whole premise for his "knockout blow" was to get 400 fighters in contact with the bombers.  If he could have done this twice then the casualties would have been prohibitive for the allies to continue the daylight bombing campaign.  As it was it never happenend.

The Luftwaffe was lucky to get 200 fighters in the air and on average only a fraction would make contact. This is why at the tip of the spear they were usually outnumbered.

Good summary of pilot training on the Western Front:

 

A summary of claims by the USAAF Fighters (does not necessarily mean actual losses):



Crumpp

[Kweassa]

The P-38 is the most underrated plane in the entire planeset. Its cleverly disguised as a 'sucky plane' and frankly the P-38 pilots like to keep it that way - one of the most successful cases of psychological treachery in the MA and the BBS

 Since the very early days the P-38 vets began a relentless lobby-campaign in the boards about how porked and average and non-uber the P-38 was .. and it worked!

 Most people started thinking that the P-38 was "a good plane overall, but nothing too out of the average. An acceptable combat plane, but I wouldn't want to fly it"

 However in reality the P-38 is one of the most suited planes for 1vs1 combat. It's literally got everything required for close-combat. The only thing it lacks is top speed at deck, which is used when running.

 People often say that the "P-38L is best at nothing" - but it is quite misleading. When somebody says "good at everything but best at nothing", the one who hears it usually imagines the subject to be pretty much average in most areas. He imagines a well-rounded out, balanced plane with no weaknesses, as opposed to some planes having superb characteristics at one side, but having distinct weaknesses at other.

 Well, that's not the picture he should be thinking! This plane is not "average/good at everything" - it's "almost best at everything" !!

 No plane in AH is like the P-38L in that the P-38L has no bad or average traits at all.



Acceleration

 It is one of the best accelerating planes in the game - believe it or not, it's true.

 The only planes that regularly outaccelerate it ay combat speeds between 150~300mph are the Lavochkins, about three 109s, a Yak-9U, N1K2-J, and a couple of Fw190s.

 The difference in acceleration with the P-38L is within 2 seconds in about half of them(about 150~200 yard separation), which leaves only about 3~4 planes that can really "leave" a P-38L "in dust".

 At 18k, the places change dramatically, and the P-38L comes within 6th place in acceleration - even when considering perked planes. Only the Bf109G-10, Me163, and the Spit14 can really "outaccelerate" a P-38L. The Bf109G-2 and F-4 outaccelerates the P-38L too, but the difference is under one second. Besides, both the G-2 and F-4 have a lower top speed - it's a losing game.


Climb

 It is one of the best climbing planes in the game(when comparing the entire altitude range, I'll consider it 'better climbing' when a plane can outclimb a certain plane for over 75% of the alt range between deck~25k).

 It is total 10th best climbing plane, 8th best climbing plane considering only non-perked planes.

 Among the seven, non-perked, better climbers, four are 109s. Then there's a Fw190D-9, C.205, and the Spit9, which make the rest three.

 Only about five planes total, outclimbs the P-38L over 10k. Among them none of the "MA's favorites" outclimbs the P-38L, except the Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10.

 Both P-51s, La-7, Typhoon - all these planes climb worse than the P-38L over 10k.

 So one may not be able to outrun a P-51 or a Typh or an La-7, but pitch the nose up, engage WEP for 5 minutes and the chances are, the P-38L will pass 10k before the 5minute time limit expires, and will gain a significant amount of alt advantage to either re-engage, or run to safety.

 At over 20k, the list grows shorter, and only the Spit9, Spit14, and the Bf109G-10 outclimbs it.


Roll

 Roll rate increases with speed, thanks to boosted ailerons. Over 400mph the best rolling plane there is.

 Between 300mph~400mph, it is on par with the P-47s, P-51s, Las and Yaks. Only the 190s and F4Us outrolls it.

 However, this is admitably a double-edged swords, as when it becomes 0~300mph. As a matter of fact, the only planes that roll worse than the P-38L between 0~300mph is the Spit1 and the Bf109E. So the P-38L shows weakness in sudden change of directions in rolling.

 
Speed

 The most lacking aspect of the P-38L is top speed - especially low alt top speed - between 0~10k.

 However, by no means is it a slow, or even an average plane. The planes that hold a constant, handy, and decisve speed advantage over the P-38L are La7, Yak9U, Spit14, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, P-47D, and two P-51s.

 Among these seven planes, only the Bf109G-10, Spit14 and the Fw190D-9 also holds a constant climb advantage over the P-38L.

 The Spit14, P-47Ds, Yak-9U are relatively rare planes in the MA.

  Therefore, logically, the most common enemy that posesses a direct threat to the P-38L when it is pressed to the defensive, is the La-7, Fw190D-9, and the Bf109G-10. When a P-38L is caught up and engaged by enemies, it will usually be likely that a 109G-10, Fw190D-9, or a La-7 is what forced it to fight, and then get ganged up.

 All other planes which is faster than the P-38L, climb much worse. The La-7 climbs much better than the P-38L until 5k, but over 5k its climb dies out dramatically - which makes it a 50:50 chance when a La-7 decides to try and follow a P-38L that decides to escape by climbing away.

 So, unless a P-38L has made a fatal mistake in the SA to begin with(like allowing a higher enemy to come by when at badd odds.. or getting a fighter at its six when low and slow..), the only plane that can catch a P-38L that decides to run away at the right timing, is the Bf109G-10 and the Fw190D-9.

So a summary:

* A P-38L, when meets planes other than these seven, can outrun and outclimb almost all of  them with a slight headstart.

* A P-38L, when meets these seven planes, can outclimb five of them. The only non-perked plane it cannot escape, is the Bf109G-10 and the Fw190D-9.

* The Fw190D-9 is absolutley no match when a fight actually occurs. The Bf109G-10 can fight the P-38L on equal terms for a limited response, but soon it will have to either decide to gain a alt-advantage by doing long climbs and change to BnZ tactics, or run away. In the long term a G-10 cannot maneuver with a P-38L - especially in rolling scissors.



Maneuverability

 The P-38L is one of the best maneuvering planes, virtually resistant to violent stalls when compared to all other planes. While its 'pure turn performance' may be average at best, the ease of reaching the extreme limits of the envelope oftens makes up for what it lacks.

 Most pilots will struggle to maintain a very tight turn in their single-engined, torque-plagued planes. A Bf109F or G-2 may be somewhat simular to the P-38L in the turning circle, if it does not use the flaps. However, while maintaining a tight turn under 200mph is a struggle for the 109, to the torque-less P-38 it is a breeze.

 Add in the combat flaps, and for a brief timing the P-38L will outturn even a Spitfire, until the Spitfire decides to bring the fight at really really low speed. But even then, a clever pilot with adequate management of his flightpath by "oscillating" his turns, can stay long enough to gain a shooting solution.

 This "oscillation" of flightpath during turn fights is technically a pilot factor rather than a plane factor, however unless a plane has some talent to begin with it's not gonna work. Obviously you're not gonna outturn Spits in a 190 by doing this. The P-38L can - because the plane has the trait.

 Only the "pure turners" like the Zeke or the Hurricane, will beat the P-38L in low-mid speed maneuvering so decisively as to never give a chance for the P-38L to use its traits to the max. Other than the "pure turners", only the Ki-84 can beat the P-38L at its own game.

 The P-38L is a extremely gentle and stable plane to begin with, and the use of flaps during maneuvering makes it even better.

 This plane will go into vertical maneuvering, and it will not flinch even once until it reaches 0mph. And as it stalls and flips over, as soon as reaching about 80mph and it can start some maneuvering.

 The Bf109G-10 is also very impressive in the vertical, but at 100mph IAS the torque will be so unbearable that it is practically impossible to keep the plane nosed up straight, even with full ailerons and rudder you couldn't stop it from rolling out.

 And even after it stalls out, it needs to recover at least 150mph speed to try and attempt maneuvering.

 The only single engined plane that's a UFO like the P-38L, is the Ki-84. Even the N1K2 has torque issues now.


Armament

 What can I say... AH2 has brought some profound changes in long range gunnery. Wing-armed planes suck - and average player will never hit an enemy plane at over 400 yards, even when the speed difference is low.
 
 However, centerline weapons still maintain some very powerful long-range potential. Even a puny, fragile Bf109 with just one 20mm cannon may defeat a 6x.50 P-51 or a 8x.50 P-47 during HOs.

 ..

 Now, the P-38L has four of the game's best(or second best, if you consider the UBS 12.7mms on the Yak-9U a better weapon) heavy machine guns, and one   best 20mm cannon, all grouped at the nose. The P-38L is the only plane that can still hit out to 600yds+ regularly(well.. the Mossie and the A-20 can do that too..).

 The ordnance options don't need any explanation - best in game.


............

  Its major drawbacks are compression, bad visibility, large size, and occasional unrecoverable flat stalls. Of them bad visibility is hardly a problem in the game, and flat stalls are easily avoidable by the pilot(don't get greedy). The only real tactical problem is the compression issue - but a lot of planes share simular problems in the game.

 Frankly, the P-38L is at least as uber as the La-7 in "combat sense". If we made a scoreboard and took scores for each of the traits and performance issues the P-38L would score higher than the La-7, or as a matter of fact score higher than all the planes in AH2, barring a couple or three.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
That is not accurate either.  Only a couple of occasions was the Luftwaffe able to effect mass interceptions.  Gallands whole premise for his "knockout blow" was to get 400 fighters in contact with the bombers.  If he could have done this twice then the casualties would have been prohibitive for the allies to continue the daylight bombing campaign.  As it was it never happenend.

The Luftwaffe was lucky to get 200 fighters in the air and on average only a fraction would make contact. This is why at the tip of the spear they were usually outnumbered.

Crumpp

Crumpp, those 50 fighters had to defend 600 bombers extending over a huge area. Usually, they flew by squadron, rarely able to provide mutual support. They were always out-numbered by the defensive fighters. That's fact, not myth.

My regards,

Widewing

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp

A summary of claims by the USAAF Fighters (does not necessarily mean actual losses):

Crumpp, how can, from your chart, the USAAF claim German fighters in 1940-41 when the USA was not at war with German then?

Another thing to remember is just because it might say 600 fighter were on a mission does not mean 600 fighters were with the bombers all the way. The fighters flew relays, picking up the bombers and allowing the current escort to rtb.

On the eve of D-day Luftwaffe Reich had 645 se fighters on strength of which 330 were servicable and 194 Zerstörers of which 71 were servicable. For Wilde Sau (Day and Night Fighters) it was 142/101.

[Krusty]

To sum up Kweassa (no offense mate, but I think you have rose colored glasses on!)

P-38 only climbs and loops well. If you are an alt monkey and like orbiting 15k over the nearest con, then YES, you can dive in on it every time all the time.

The ONLY reason this plane is popular (and my evidence is that this is the move used 99% of the time by every pilot I've ever seen) is that it can merge in a 1v1, pull up, and keep going up and then loop over once the enemy stalls out. I think the zoom climb is way too BS for my tastes (don't care what it was based on, that CAN'T be right), but basically people just nose up and roll onto their backs to shoot the other plane.

Sometimes this results in repeated HOs, sometimes it's a real rope-a-dope and the other plane is floundering.

However It does NOT turn well. Screw the flaps. If you get flaps out more than 1 notch you're dead. It does NOT roll well. You roll much over 400mph you won't be going 400mph for long. Then you're stuck with the normal - read bad - roll rate. It is NOT fast, unless you dive (see alt monkey comment ) and it does dive well with those dive flaps.

Basically people fly it because it loops repeatedly forever, and they use this one manuver every chance they get. It's a 1-trick pony.

I've flown it a few times myself. Shot it down a few times myself as well. A 109F4 can teach it a lesson (and that's not as powerful as a G-series engine, either)


Just offering a counter-point.

[Dextry]

Originally posted by Krusty


However It does NOT turn well. Screw the flaps. If you get flaps out more than 1 notch you're dead. It does NOT roll well. You roll much over 400mph you won't be going 400mph for long. Then you're stuck with the normal - read bad - roll rate. It is NOT fast, unless you dive (see alt monkey comment ) and it does dive well with those dive flaps.

 

Krusty I've flown the P38 in aces high a bit myself and one thing it does do well is turn (at lower speeds of course) if you play your cards right you can turn and roll with spit5's and still kill them.Though the roll is NOT great by any means.

[Krusty]

You *can*, yes. But it seems more like a blessing from Olympus rather than actual intention. Sometimes you just get lucky and "slip into" a turn, like you're on rails. I've done the same to a SpitV in things that really ought not out turn one. Sometimes it's just position and luck.

Thing is, tho, that once the flaps are out (the 38 is slow) that other planes can do things it cannot, such as yo-yo with the 38 trying to remain steady. The 38 has to get its speed back up, which either involves running (diving, if it can) or pulling flaps in and hitting WEP on level (a death sentence, for sure). Once those flaps are OUT, you *have* to keep them out. Pulling them in will have a bad effect on you, and you can't speed up til they're in. So basically if you have more than 1 notch out in a p38 turn, you're too slow and you can't get any faster without diving vertically away.