Author Topic: Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....  (Read 5043 times)

Offline BlauK

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2004, 11:27:43 AM »
I know that many people learn to think that they are leaning their heads and it will work just fine for them....

I am only asking an option to make it also work with the gutt feeling, the way the real pilot would move in the cockpit.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline hitech

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2004, 12:18:28 PM »
Blauk: It is working correctly as far as I can tell, I.E. Lean to right when looking back you look around right side. If it isn't working that way in your version, somting is different in your setup.

Also you seem to be the only one with this problem, including test by the track IR people.


HiTech

Offline BlauK

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2004, 12:39:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Blauk: It is working correctly as far as I can tell, I.E. Lean to right when looking back you look around right side.



"...around right side"  related to your view point (?), yes. But why would I want to lean RIGHT if I am trying to look over my LEFT shoulder... at the LEFT rear window?

The point is moving XYZ related to my body, not related to where my head is twisted!

There is actually even a contradiction in current AH2 system. IN ROLL the XYZ do not move related to view, but in YAW and PITCH they do.

HiTech,
please try this tower example... why do I start running around the tower just by turning my head around when I have leaned to left outside of the tower? How can I only "move to left side of tower, stay put and look around from that point" ?

The animanted head in TrackIR windows does not behave like the AH2 pilot (run around the tower). If I move the head to left side of the window and yaw it around, it stays at the left side.. it does not spin around the center of the window.

I'll post a picture of "real pilot's position vs player's position" for 3 different cases to this thread asap... within next few hours so you people could see what I mean. :)


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline BlauK

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2004, 03:01:51 PM »
Ok.. got my kids to bed :)

Here are my points:
-player moves XYZ with his body (head cannot move much without body)
-therefore YAW and PITCH pivot points in game should move with XYZ (like neck moves with shoulders)
-ROLL pivot point already moves with XYZ
-real pilot's body does not YAW or PITCH because his bottom stays in the seat

In the following example X, Y and YAW are presented like in the picture below.




PITCH and YAW work just fine individually, but when combined with X and/or Y, the results are not instinctive.. IMHO. They relate to twisting the whole body around with YAW even though the body cannot YAW around, and therefore they represent a "reality" which cannot happen in the cockpit.


Here are the 3 examples:
1) Pilot leans forwards and looks left (to avoid the middle cockpit frame e.g. in 109G-2)
2) Pilot leans left and looks to his 7 o'clock (to peek around the head armour)
3) Pilot lean forwards and twists around trying to check his 6 (trying to get away from the head armour to see better to both sides)

The moves of a real pilot are presented in column A while the player's moves necessary to achieve the view in AH2 currently are in column C. My suggestion and wish for necessary player moves are in column B.
IMHO, AH2 moves represent an alternate reality, which is shown in column D





I hope that you all can see how the YAW pivot points and X/Y moves in column C are in many ways different from the real pilot in column A.

The solution would be to offer an option where the YAW and PITCH pivot points would move along with XYZ movements!

To rest my case, I present a final challenge. How can I currently do the following in AH2 with TIR vector?
- lean left, stay put and look in different directions?  (the left picture below)
When I try it, the result is what is shown in the right picture... my head pops off and makes a wide circle aroud the cockpit.




So, simply.. HTC, PLEASE,.. offer this solution, even just as an option, if it is not very difficult to make!!!
It should not be :)


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline Octavius

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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2004, 03:29:02 PM »
Very nice explanation Blauk :)  I was just about to post this.  Vector expansion arrived today and I'm in the process of testing it out.

I also experience htis.

Basically - XYZ movement should be independant of current Yaw or Pitch view settings.

Looking straight through the gunsight.  Moving sideways, forwards/backwards, and up and down (XYZ movement) works fine.  

Now look left (90 degrees).  The XYZ axes have moved WITH your current view.  So, XYZ movement still exists, but it is relative to your new view (90 deg left).  Moving sideways along the new X axis actually moves you FORWARD relative to the cockpit.. or forward along the original Z axis.  

If the axes can be 'held in place' relative to the cockpit or vehicle you're in, then all will be well :)
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Offline hitech

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2004, 03:48:36 PM »
Baulk: What your talking about would be intuitivly backwards for most people.


3rd just think of left and right realitive to your ears.


HiTech

Offline Yippee38

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2004, 05:36:18 PM »
Great explanation BlauK.  What you says seems to make sense, but then again, I don't have my vector expansion, so I can't agree or disagree.  Next week I'll weigh in again.

Offline BlauK

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2004, 05:40:10 PM »
Yup, HiTech

Many things are fine with the average consumer in whichever business...
(I myself have been working in industrial design, ergonomics and usability fields for several years, and there for am pretty critical and choosy in some cases :eek: )

That is why I am asking (or begging :D ) this just as an option to satisfy those who think they are actually acting in a cockpit and position their thinking in relation to plane's axis. We may not be such a small minority after all in such a group as Flight Sim enhusiasts are.

The current way is a big immersion killer for a product which exists mostly for the  sake of adding immersion, and like presented in last picture, it does not allow natural movements in some cases.... (makes one feel really dumb when the unexpected happens :( )

so.. pretty PLEASE :cool:


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline bustr

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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2004, 06:23:46 PM »
Blauk,

Had that headrest problem until I made my separation distance from the TrackIR camera and my track hat 24-30 inches like the manual says to for using the Vector enhancement. Then I was able to look around the headreast and back. Some of what you are running into is the reason rearview mirrors were installed.

Everyone I fly with using TrackIR in this mode loves it. I talk to them during missions. They won't go back to hat switches.

TrackIR has a forum for what you are asking here. The TrackIR developers have to address this. HiTech only writes for enabeling the device in his game. How it functions in 6 dimensions is up to the creators at NaturalPoint.

http://forums.naturalpoint.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
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Offline ALF

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2004, 06:32:38 PM »
Quote

Baulk:The solution would be to offer an option where the YAW and PITCH pivot points would move along with XYZ movements!
.


It sounds good on paper, but in practice it makes no practicle sense.  When you turn your head....your concept of left and right turn with it.  I know it looks all nice in your controled diagram...but lets take a look at it like this.

You stay centered and look all the way to the left till you have a 6 view.

Now you want to lean more out to the edge of the canopy

You think leaning RIGHT is going to be instinctive?

I think the issue is your diagrams show a 3rd person view of a 1st person experince.   I just cant imagine it feeling 'right' to lean left and watch the view shift right.


RIght click SAVE AS...Windows Media file 4.5 megs showing how this works in practical use

Offline Eagler

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2004, 09:24:45 PM »
alf
double check ur download
it just sits there for me, I do not get any head movement in the cockpit
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Offline BlauK

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2004, 04:54:45 AM »
bustr,
TIR developers do not set the pivot points in AH2... HTC does. TIR only provides signals which HTC then utilizes in their own code.

ALF,
I already agreed that some people like the current way, some even liked the original TIR without vector expansion.
I am not asking for them to be removed. I am asking an additional feature to satisfy those who think in relation to their body and stick and plane's axis. 3-D perception (or sense) varies a lot with different people, u know :)

btw, how 'right' do you feel in real life when you turn your head left (90 deg) and then lean your body left... and realize that your view moves forwards instead of left... ;)


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Offline Rolex

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2004, 08:05:16 AM »
Well... after seeing the other video posted and alf's, I'm sold. Gotta have it.

Thanks for supporting this in the game, HTC.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2004, 10:53:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Baulk: What your talking about would be intuitivly backwards for most people.


3rd just think of left and right realitive to your ears.


HiTech


I think Blauk must ride a motorcycle when to look back the body is twisted slightly and the the head is dipped as it looks rearward.........the eye line is then in the vertical (one eye above another)

What Blauk describes as AH2 mode is that of a car driver's position when in reversing.

If there was a bulkhead behind your head which would be used? supposing you had a Malcolm hood?
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Offline JB73

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Got the TrackIR Vector Expansion....
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2004, 11:05:23 AM »
question about trackIR and AH...


there are some planes where the head position can not be moved (in regular HAT views).

take the p47d-11 for example, when looking up and right, you can not move the head position up, or forward IIRC.


are these limitations in trackIR too? maeaning does your virtual head "stop" in these same places?


also, i hav espent hours getting the best possible saved head positions, do these matter in any way with trackIR?
I don't know what to put here yet.