Author Topic: Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data  (Read 1586 times)

Offline Pongo

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2000, 08:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:
Dinger your data suggests that some of the louder whining on this board has no basis in fact.


? if the (HE)leathality of the rounds is within 20% of each other but the game effect vs AC is much different then that. doesnt that concern you?
Also this indicates that the mine shell for the 151 is not modeled in the game. As it would be a lovely round for leveling unarmoured structures..A task for which kinetic energy and velocity) are totaly useless.
Like most testing people will read into it what they will
Thanks Dinger...good job

Offline Lephturn

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2000, 11:35:00 AM »
Dinger,

If you do not have V-Synch enabled I would view your results as highly suspect.  That issue with rounds going through the target is EXACTLY what I would expect to happen if you have V-Synch disabled.

Enabling V-Synch is not a "solution" to any bug.  V-Synch should ALWAYS be enabled, and by default it is enabled.  If you go messing with advanced settings that do silly things to get the highest possible framerate number HTC can't control wether that breaks something in the collission detection or not.  The ONLY valid reason I can find to disable V-Synch is for benchmarking high-end video cards that will turn in frame rates higher than your monitor refresh.  It should be enabled for everything else you do.

In addition, you did these tests offline.  I'm not sure that the offline server code is nearly as good or exact as the online stuff, especially for things like buildings.  To be valid, you would have to do test vs. other airplanes, and do them Online.

It's great that you went and did some testing, but there are some issues with your test platform and setup that put the results in serious doubt.  While we all appreciate the effort you put in, lets try and get some better controlled data.  


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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
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I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
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[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-17-2000).]

avin

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2000, 03:02:00 PM »
I'm sorry, lephturn, but I don't see that either.

The computer holds an internal model of events, from which information is sent to the video card and thence to the monitor. Whether vsync is enabled or not should have nothing to do with the internal model the CPU holds. Hit detection is done by the internal model - it doesn't depend on what's on your monitor or video card.

If rockets or other projectiles are going through the hangar, then my first guess would be the same as Dinger's - it's a bug that may depend on framerate. If framerate drops below a critical threshold, the WB FE loses hits too.

But I do agree with you, leph, that disabling vsync is a bad idea. Your gunnery suffers. The reasons are complex, but I'll try for a coherent explanation if anybody really wants to know.

Dinger, thanks for the hard work. I have some idea of how long this sort of thing takes.

avin


[This message has been edited by avin (edited 05-17-2000).]

Offline Lephturn

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Avin, while I understand what you are getting at, I have run into this before.  Regardless of WHY it happens, I have seen several cases where folks were reporting "rubber bullets" that were fixed when V-Synch was re-enabled.  My reasoning as to why is purely conjecture on my part, I've just seen evidence to suggest that disabling V-Synch can cause problems with either hit detection or damage assessment.  Could be that the hell it plays with gunnery just makes it seem that way I suppose though...  If we make sure it's enabled, then we're don't have to worry about a possible problem it may cause.  

However, the idea of doing this OFFLINE is still a bad one.  Sure, the hit detection and damage routines are the same, but I don't know about the server side code.  If we do some tests online in the TA, it will eliminate any possiblility of bad data.  Also, that way somebody could taxi a B-17 or a C47 out on the RW to be a target, so we have a more valid test than a building.  All we prove otherwise is that the hit-detection is busted for buildings.    Good stuff on the ammo testing, I guess we'll have to bug-test separately.  I'll see if I can't do some of that tonight.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
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Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

funked

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2000, 04:00:00 AM »
I said "suggests" Pongo.  

Offline Dinger

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2000, 04:16:00 AM »
Ok, Lephturn, as I stated in my post above, I enabled Vsync, and ran some "Control" tests with the 20mm cannons on the N1k and the Mk 108.  I got the exact same results.
As for online vs. offline, I also ran a control with the .50 cal online.  In fact, I have destroyed several hangars in combat conditions with an m16 using around 1300 rounds of .50 cal.  The big problem with online tests is that netlag and server lag make it very difficult to determine exactly when a building falls.  Add to this a bug where firing in short bursts (so as to arrive at a relatively precise number of rounds fired) results in shots being lost, and frankly, the online environment has too many results to control.
Testing against aircraft is even more difficult, because you have two connections to deal with, as well as the host-side damage model.  I concur completely that caution should be used when translating these figures into air-to-air lethality, because there could very well be other factors modelled, such as penetration, hit location and so on.  Heck, it takes 25 AP shells to destroy a hangar, and 20 HE shells; but the former are much better against tanks.  Then again, they may not be modelled; mk 108 30mms should be relatively useless against armor, but instead they're quite good.
In short, these results show:
A. The relative damage on hangars of all the weapons in AH, translated into equivalent pounds of bombs.
B. The ground attack efficacy of these weapons.
C. The existence of a serious and repeatable bug in hit detection, at the very least with hangars (actually at least two of them: a. in some places the hangars are 100% transparent, b. on the "solid" parts, some shots travel straight through -- and,no, I don't think it's just dispersion mixed with a.).

C. does limit the validity of the results, but since applying the "firehose" technique of shooting generated results that were 100% repeatable on my FE (in different A/C and vehicles, and regardless of whether I was at a large, medium or small field), I hope its effect is minimal. Of course, it would serious mitigate the results if, say, its effect were more pronounced with the number of projectiles in the air.

From these figures, you could go and calculate relative lethality data, which Hooligan has done in his laudable tables.  But if you throw in the Aircraft damage model into the mix, you increase the number of variables considerably, many of which are unknown.  I'd like to see someone construct a controlled experiment under those conditions.

If there would be a next step, for me it would involve confirming my results on a completely different setup, and testing the relative lethality against a non-hangar object (such as a city building), as I don't think the proportion guns/bombs holds steady between hangars and other ground objects.

Oh, and yeah, this test is really useful.  Did you ever think about how much damage a b17 could actually do to an HQ building if, instead of bombing and leaving, it deacked, bombed and strafed?  Or if some dweeb drove a cannon hawg up to the entrance?

Offline Vermillion

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2000, 06:16:00 AM »
Actually Dinger, its been my contention that "bombs and rockets are way too weak and have little to no blast effect" for quite some time.

And your right, the quickest way to take down the city is to use a single bomber to de-ack it, and then use a couple of -1C's to strafe it into ruin.

Much quicker than trying to do it with bombs.

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avin

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
Dinger,

fwiw, the WB FE starts to lose a fraction of projectiles at 6-10 fps. At 1-3 fps, you can drive a plane right through all solid structures - all hit detection stops working. I'd be curious to know if this is what's happening, or if part of the hangar is indeed transparent as you suggest.

But leph is correct when he says you should fly online with vsync enabled. It's very important for your gunnery.

Disabling vsync doesn't cause what would be a hit to become a miss. What it does is: it causes the picture on your monitor to be more (often considerably more) often out of sync with the internal model the CPU holds to calculate hits. It makes it harder to predict where the bogie is going to be when you estimate lead for a gunnery solution.

If hit feedback isn't appropriately scaled to the number of hits (so you get hit flashes whether you hit with 3 bullets or 20) this can look like rubber bullets.

avin

Offline Lephturn

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Here they are: AH weapons lethality test data
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2000, 04:17:00 PM »

I'm not saying your results are not valid Dinger, it's good work.  We just need to be careful not to apply it to A2A gunnery.  Thanks for trying all the control issues to clarify what's happening.  Pyro will be more likely to listen to good data like that.  Have you posted this in the Bug forum?

This bit with short bursts going through the target is extremely distressing though.  I'm going to try this with planes and see if I can make it happen.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/


"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl