What to do in the following case?

[Tac]

Ask Apar or NathBDP

$@#$#@ 190 basterds.

[aknimitz]

Andy,

Please explain why scissors cannot be used to force an overshoot.  I regularly use the rolling, flat and vertical scissor with a bandit on my 6, closing, to facilitate an overshoot.

Nim

[-ammo-]

what nimitz describes is what I have always called a break turn. in the situation you describe naudet, I believe this is your best bet. It is really effective if both of you have a considerable amount of spped, say 300+. You have to start the turn gentle, gettting him to commit to a shot. as he gets closer gradually increase your rate of turn till hes right at the 600 yard mark and then pull hard enough for him to miss. Then immediately rool your AC upright and in the same movement pull up slightly and roll it inverted. This should allow you to keep vis on him and your canopies should be next to each other. Continue your roll with a little rudder and you should be able to get under and behind him. He will likely try to roll with you and both of you will go into a rolling scissors.  If the enemy pilot sees the bait early on and does not  commit to your turn, then this is more trouble. Hopefully you have some altitude to play with.

[Andy Bush]

aknimitz

The point here is terminology...specifically, BFM definitions.

A scissors of any type is a maneuver flown to counter a bandit angular or longitudinal overshoot. By definition.

The maneuver(s) that you describe to force an overshoot have other names...rolling maneuver, hard turn, break turn, etc.

Misuse of BFM terminology is common on these forums and happens when enthusiastic simmers try to describe something they've seen or done. A good example is the term "snap roll". This is an aerobatic maneuver, not BFM. If flown as BFM, it should be called a High G Roll Over the Top (or Underneath).

It's more than just a confusion of terms. A snap roll is not flown like a High G Roll, although the two maneuvers superficially resemble each other.

And that's where the problem lies. Folks are familiar with the snap roll term, and try to replicate it as a BFM maneuver and then use that term in conversations with others.

To begin with, not all sims will permit the maneuver to be flown...their flight model just won't hack it. Second, their description of the term may well cause confusion when someone knows the difference. That person is left wondering, "Did he really mean "snap roll"...or something else...because a snap roll wouldn't do diddley in that situation".

It's tough to ask for, but we all need to be on the same sheet of music when we talk BFM. How does someone get there? Not very easily. Read Shaw for starters...but that only goes so far since that book really is intended for folks that already have a pretty good background in the basics.

Outside of that, all I can suggest is that folks keep an open mind, ask questions, and don't make this an ego thing. (Not that anyone has here...but it's happened elsewhere!)

Andy

[-ammo-]

Andy are you implying that flight sim pilots hjave large ego's? where in the world would you get that idea...?

[aknimitz]

Hiyas,

Thanks for the clarification, I certainly was unaware of that.  I have Shaw's book but honestly at times it is a bit overwhelming for me.  I certainly do not claim to be an expert, hell I'm no where near one.  I'll try to readh back through Shaw's book some and see if I cannot get a better handle on some of the terminology.  

Nim

[Naudet]

Both the answers of Nimitz and Urchin sound very interesting.

The actually problem i have with them is the "timing" aspect.
I tried them couple of times, but what was very astonishing to me, that very often i was killed around that 600 yrds mark, when i already gave my hunter a 60-80 degree def angle.
Might this be a connection issue? Cause from time to time my latency changes from day to day in a range of 200ms-400ms.

And one big question to urchin about barrel rolls in the FW190.
As we both know the bird rolls like hell, especially between 300-360mph. So how much roll input you give into the barrel roll?
To me it seems i often give to much, and so due to the incredible roll rate of the FW the diameter of the barrel is really really small, what makes it easier for the hunter to get a good amount of hits bye simple spray&pray.

[Andy Bush]

Naudet

As a guns defense, the barrel roll is a slow roll as compared to an aileron roll. Use more G than aileron when doing the barrel roll. Use rudder only to offset adverse yaw.

The objective is to move the a/c laterally as well as in pitch. In this slower roll, your flight path is constantly changing. The attacker has to match that roll rate and establish a lead point in your flight path as well. As a simple "stick and rudder" exercise, this is not easy, and is why the maneuver is effective as a guns defense.

The main problem is that the maneuver doesn't do anything for getting you out of trouble...it only keeps you from getting hit at that moment.

It is possible to perform this maneuver very aggressively...possibly throw in a throttle chop for good measure...and cause an unwary attacker to overshoot. Most experienced attackers, however, when they see the roll beginning, will just hang back and wait for the airshow to end before they reinitiate their attack.

When performed in an aggressive manner, the barrel roll defense starts getting close to becoming the High G Roll defense...a maneuver flown to defeat a gun attack by causing an overshoot...whereas the barrel roll is intended to deny the attacker an effective aiming opportunity.

Andy

[Drex]

What Nimitz said on his first post is one of the best ways to increase your probability of defeating his gun solution, and to put you into a position to kill him.  I would also add, try doing your break turn with your nose going below the horizon.  Your lift vector should still be on the bandit.  This will increase the difficulty of his shot.

Another tip.  When you are rolling back into the bandit you will lose sight of him briefly.  Switch to your top view and you will see his tracers(if he has them on) this will give you a good indication on his flight path.  

Drex

[Andy Bush]

Lift vector control brings up an important distinction. We need to be careful about exactly what we are talking about.

In the example that started this thread, the defender is using a guns break as a defense.

This defense has two parts...one part is the attempt to defeat the attacker's flight path...in other words, to cause him to overshoot. The second part is the attempt to defeat his gun attack...in other words to maneuver out of his bullet stream.

To a certain extent, these objectives can conflict with each other. Here's why:

When we break into the bandit for the purpose of forcing an overshoot, we do it in the attacker's plane of motion. This means putting your lift vector on the attacker. As Drex pointed out, you may bias your lift vector position slightly by orienting it below the horizon. This tends to preserve energy while you are pulling G.

Try to remain as close to the attacker's plane of motion as possible. Any out of plane maneuvering will give the attacker additional turning room that he might use to minimize his tendency to overshoot.

So, to cause the attacker to overshoot, we maneuver hard in his plane of motion.

But what about the second objective...making him miss?

We begin by remembering that the attacker's bullet stream in essentially in his plane of motion (assuming he maintains a constant attitude/bank angle). The longer we stay in that plane of motion, the more chance there is that we may get hit if he is firing. That's a very big "if".

If the attacker is firing, we want to get out of the bullet stream ASAP...and that means getting out of his plane of motion. I suggest visualizing his wingtips as the area that you want to point your lift vector at (if the attacker is in a bank, orient your lift vector, altitude permitting, at his low wing). Roll until your lift vector is pointing at his wingtip and then break hard. Maintain this G for a good 3 seconds or so...long enough to move your position away from the bullet stream. Then unload and reassess your position. Be ready to repeat this maneuver if the attacker is counter-maneuvering for another shot.

So where are we? The real issue is one of whether or not the attacker is firing. Often this is related to range and attacker nose position. If the attacker is at a longer range...or his nose is not in lead...then I break hard in-plane to work an overshoot.

If the bandit is at close range or anytime I see his nose in lead, I break out of plane to defeat the bullet stream.

Andy

[aknimitz]

Holy Jesus.  TRANSLATOR PLEASE!  

Andy, you a real pilot?  Please tell me I just didnt ask a ridiculously stupid question, your not like Shaw incognito are you?  

Nim

[Naudet]

Andy, i think i just (maybe like nimitz) got half the vocabulary you are using. Seems you are a pro in respects of flying.

So i need a couple of definitions to clearly understand what you mean, i am just a sim pilot and so i may have used some of the terms, but not in the right way.


"lift vector" - when i use top view (90 degree up) i look along my lift vector, cause its the vector generated by the lift of my wings, is that right? In a sideview drawing, the liftvector would be shown as an up arrow, roughly 90 degree up to the wing and fuselage axis.

"putting my lift vector on the enemy" - this means i try to bring my lift vector (top view) on the nme. i.e. i attack a lower plane, that breaks, i go UP, roll in the vertikal, so that when he comes out of the break, i just need to pull back on the stick to fall in behind him, right?

and what you exactly mean by this
 

I suggest visualizing his wingtips as the area that you want to point your lift vector at (if the attacker is in a bank, orient your lift vector, altitude permitting, at his low wing). Roll until your lift vector is pointing at his wingtip and then break hard.

i tried to visualize that but couldnt really get it, lets say we both fly a turn with 25 degree bank, so too evade his shot (when he opens up with his guns) i roll till my lift vector points 25 degree below the horzion and than pull hard to move it on the lower wingtip of my hunter?


For you that might look like stupid questions, but i should add that english is not my native language, i am from germany and so i might misunderstand some terms.

[humble]

hmmm....think I've been on the recieving end of nim and urchin more thsn once  .

Naudet, I usually end up in the exact situation you describe on a regular basis...it happens one of two ways:

1) I've been T&Bing and am low and reloading E and a con has crept in toward the fight during the end game...I may pick him up early but if he's low he'll often get in close before I see him

2) I break off an attack due to a new threat and have 1 or more cons in pursuit...usually an la-7 or 190 with a nikki(s) or spit in tow.

The 1st key here is your initial SA isnt right on...you know he's there...but you've misjudged his E level...any evasive designed to exploit a negative E situation simply increases his shot opportunity and selection...If I see a con inside a thousand I imediately drop the nose hard...a little neg G never hurts anything...I then zero G out and see if he's any closer...if so you go to break moves...if not dump the nose again and see if you can extend...going back to your question...I like to "porpoise" a bit...quick vertical moves...if con is slowly closing but inside the outer guns envelope (say 1.0 to 800)...on the 2nd or 3rd "dive" I'll chop throttle and go up and down quickly...ideally I'll get him focused on a shot as he closes...my key here is to create a neg E state relative to him...now I'll go to the above mentioned break turn as he prepares to shoot...Ideally he'll pull hard to chase the shot and my out of plane reverse will set up the situation that nim and urchin described.

I've found the better pilots will sit on the flat turn a little better without a distraction. Ideally the initial vertical will get thinking with their gunsight....course if you cut it to close you feel (and look) like a total dweeb as your tail gets chopped off at 500 or so .

snaphook

[humble]

For those who dont know Andy is the real deal...in addition to sheparding around an overgrown cigar tube for a living he's flown ACM were they played for keeps and taught it as well (MD-80 and thuds if I remember correctly).

If you bear with him he'll eventually boil it down to where even us sim heads can figure it out...almost  .

Anyway glad to see you back on the BBS.

All the Best

[Urchin]

I can try to explain some stuff as I see it.

Andy is saying that when we "break" into an enemy (i.e he is coming slightly from the left, so we roll left and then pull hard for the "break turn") we actually INCREASE our chances of getting hit because we are presenting a bigger target to his guns, which lie in his plane of motion.  

To avoid that, I only use the break to "set up" my real evasive move, which I usually just call a barrel roll, but Andy described as a High G defensive roll (I think).

I think what he is saying is that we really have two problems- 1.  We have to get out of the bandits way so we don't get shot, and 2.  We have to avoid getting shot while performing #1.

For me in a Dora or a G10, I look at it as a matter of equalizing energy states.  If a bandit is closing on my 6 by a little bit, but is co-alt with me, he has a little bit more E than I do.  I know that if my plane can accelerate faster, I can regain E faster than my opponent.  So if a P51 is closing on my 6, I'm not particularly worried, but if it is an La7 I'm close to messing my pants.

If you have a slow accelerating plane like a P51 closing on you, it is to your advantage to lower both of your E states (i.e speed), because you will get yours back faster than he will.  

I used to do a flat turn, followed by another flat turn back into the bandit, but that doesn't work real well in my opinion.  First of all, you are staying in the same plane relative to your attacker, and secondly you are just burning speed (and therefore energy) and not getting anything back for it.  I've tried a few other variations (including a high turn (relative to the attacker), followed by a quick 180 roll and a "low turn" (again relative to the attacker, this one back into him).  This is a good move for getting away from people, but its offensive potential is limited in my opinion.  So I have settled on the barrel roll defense for now as the 'best' solution.

Oh, and for my barrel roll, it is actually mostly elevator, with a little aileron or rudder thrown in for the "roll" part.  The goal is to "move" your plane in a big a circle as possible, to make it hard for the enemy to kill you.  Of course, the larger the circle, the more speed you lose, which can make it tough to go for the kill if they do overshoot.  I actually never look straight ahead while I'm doing it, I am looking at the bandit and using him as a point of reference on whether my roll is to large or to small.  If he doesn't go after me at all, I make a pretty small circle, turn to a slightly different heading (to put him behind me again), and level out for speed.  It is very important to ALWAYS be at at LEAST 300 mph (True, not indicated) before you start the evasive, any slower and you will be to slow from the flat turn to make a decent roll.

On the other hand, if I see him rolling to try to get back in-plane with me, I just widen the roll some (make it bigger from his POV).

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Urchin ]