Herstal FN Five-SeveN for the US police force?

[lasersailor184]

Patrone, I'm calling you out as a charlottan...

[lazs2]

patrone... interesting subject.  I was not aware that norma made mid range rounds for a 44 mag..  also.. the FBI has a history of selecting the wrong caliber and gun.   The 9mm was first adopted byu the FBI

now, on the tests you were part of.   Was the person shot while wearing the vest incapacitated even if the vest was not penetrated and what rounds caused the damage.   In the States.. when a 44 mag hits a police vest but doesn't penetrat it usually incapacitates the wearer.

The .40 is a very good caliber.  fairly accurate and with a much better stopping record than the 9mm.   Here, based on marshals study on real life shootings... the .357 is king of the one shot stops.   The .40 is next.   I don't know about your study but the marshal one uses thousands of real shootings to gather it's data.

As for this new caliber... it is not that new.. there really are no new calibers.  Several wildcat rounds here in the states used both a .357 and a 45acp round necked down to .22 to achive very similar velocities out of handguns.   They didn't catch on.

I would like to see the test results for your testing even tho it is ten years old and couldn't possibly have any modern bullet loads in it.

Oh... most 44 rounds are hunting rounds.  they are made to not expand much.  There are several new loads such as the rem hydroshock that will expand and cause massive damage and still retain weight.

What was the specs on the 44 load... bullet weight, velocity and barrel length?   My standard load is a 250 grain 44 mag cast lead semi wadcutter at 1250-1350 fps (depending on gun)  The hydroshock is a 240 jacketed HP at about the same.

What you are saying about your tests is useless if you don't tell us what the ammo was (not just caliber) and what it was fired out of and into.

Here... my 44 (and everyone elses) easily outpenetrate any 9mm round.   Also.. I can load anything from frangible ammo to solid copper armor piercing and... since it is a revolver... all in the same cylinder.   If the first round of hydroshocks doesn't work then the AP one next will..

lazs

[storch]

Originally posted by lazs2
yep... I would agree.   Was talking to the swat guy at the range and he told me of a fellow officer who took 3 44 mag rounds to the back while wearing their new armor.   The guy survived but was paralized from one round that impacted over the spine.   He is recovering the use of his legs tho..  Swat guy said it looked like all the rounds penetrated even tho they didn't... massive tissue damage.   I am a big 44 mag round fan.  

Another time... at the range.. the cops were practicing fireing from cover... they were using car doors on junk cars they had moved out there.... when they left I put six rounds of 44 mag 250 grain cast lead semi wadcuters into the car door... all penetrated clear through...  They looked a little sheepish the next day when using the door for cover.

lazs

[patrone]

I do not have the papers from the tests I conducted as this was done for a Company who hired me and my firm for consulting in a wide range of tests. Not only for bodyarmour, but for to test a whole lot of other firearm/military releated products of Russian origin.

The problem: The Nato Bodyarmour that where used by UN troops could´nt stop the bullets that where used in the Bosnian conflict. I dont remember which one it was, if it was the 7,62x54r or the 7,9x57. I do remember it was a round fired from a machinegun. The result was good: the bodyarmour could stop both theese and a varity of other military calibers as well. The armour where sent to Germany for labratory evaluation by UN and finelly 2500 items where delivered to UN troops in Bosnia.

As the results of this grade of body armour where very positive, the company wanted to test "lighter" armour for Police and civilian use. And I used all kinds of calibers with diffrent loads, even shootguns. The .44 mag I know and remember using only 1 load and it was from Norma.  As you might understand, there was a lot of shooting and loads of diffrent types of guns used, handguns, shootguns, submachineguns and assultrifles with various twists etc, etc.

To make the story a little shorter, the sales of the civilian version was not succesful, mainly caused by the effect from the first succes with the military version.

The shooting with heavier calibers where conducted on blocks of soap with a special coating applied.

[wulfie]

Those 5.7s are nasty with a capital N. Very nasty. Way way more than a pistol version of the concept behind the M16, 5.56mm rifle rounds, etc.

They punch holes in anytthing they could reasonable be expected to face in terms of armor and then they absolutely tear the sh*t out of whatever is soft behind it. There's some special design to the rounds.

And to top it off the pistol is faster and easier to control in terms of rapid firing or double taps than a 'quick and smooth' 9mm like the 92 or a CZ.

And the carbine/SMG is very easy to control even when using fully automatic fire. By easy I mean 'almost paint your name on the farm wall firing 1 handed' easy.

Lazs, you are The Gun Man do a little research on the design of the various military issue rounds for the 5.7. I don't know the specifics of why they tear people apart so bad but from first hand accounts that is exactly what they do.

Lasersailor1984 I'm pretty sure that 'patrone' was a soldier in some European or Scandanavian military.

Mike/wulfie

[patrone]

Laz2

I cant find any Norma produced pistol or rev. ammo other then a .32 and 2 diffrent 9 mm P.

I know they produced a wide range of special rounds as well as common when I was in the buisness. Even Factory loads for the .44 automag.

I am fearing that the ban of led in all ammunitions from jan 2008 has some part in this. ( Applies even to military issued ammo!)

They are working on a replacement, but it is yet to expensive to be presented in general.

Now I understand why I dont have to pay for my ammo,,,,,:lol

[lasersailor184]

No, 5.7's don't.  They are just a high velocity standard bullet.

The only thing they are good at is punching clean holes.  Either through a bullet proof vest, or a stomach.  A clean .22 inch hole.


However, 5.56's shatter when they hit.  That's why they are more dangerous.  However(another one), if it drops below a certain velocity, it becomes a .22 caliber bullet.

[patrone]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, 5.7's don't.  They are just a high velocity standard bullet.

The only thing they are good at is punching clean holes.  Either through a bullet proof vest, or a stomach.  A clean .22 inch hole.


However, 5.56's shatter when they hit.  That's why they are more dangerous.  However(another one), if it drops below a certain velocity, it becomes a .22 caliber bullet.

Ok, can we agree on one thing, once and for all? the Messure caliber 22 is equal to the messure 5,56 mm.
The speed of the bullet, does not make it biger, it is still 22 caliber, 5,56 mm.

We are talking about normal military issue ammo and not special bullets: 223 Nato (5,56x45)?  Fired in what kind of gun? What rifle twist? Lenght off barrel? And how does the bullet shatter?
In a body, a piece of wood, what?

Have you experience this? Or is it just another Urban legend (hoax)? How old are you and what kinda experience do you have with guns and shooting?

Calling me a charlettan..............

Now, prove your point.

[Dune]

The harder a bullet is the more it penetrates (taking velocity, size, etc.).  The harder it is, the less it expands.  A hollow point bullet or hunting bullet will expand more than a ball projo.  However they wont penetrate with one.  The balance then becomes having sufficient penetration to go through body armour and then do more than just poke a hole through the target.  Sure it may bleed out.  And shock is a *****.  But it's not incapacitating immediately.  Remember the comments made by the SF soldiers in Black Hawk Down.  They would shoot the enemy and they wouldn't go down.  They'd keep firing.  

Manufactuers of hunting bullets have many different ways to try and balance penetration with expansion.  Usually they will have partition-style bullet with a hollow or soft point and a solid core behind it.  The bullet opens up and the core pushes it through.  But hollow points or soft points wont punch through armour.

Personally, if you're depending on blood loss and shock to incapacitate a target, you need a larger caliber (make a bigger hole).  This website has several very usefull balistic calculators to compare the killing/stopping power of different cartridges: http://www.handloads.com/

[lazs2]

Ok guys... the round we are talking about was used in the fifties in a revolver made by Smith and Wesson only it was and still is called a 22 hornet.  the ballistics are about identical.   the 22 hornet was never known to be a particularly leathal round on game and is not legal to hunt small deer with in most states even out of a rifle.

Some new bullet development may make this hershel round a winner but I bet acts like everything else... a good hit with ideal conditions will make for massive damage and a bad hit will drill a litltle 22 hole through and through...

No one has completely solved the problem of penetration vs energy transfer/wound channel.

Most simply go with the "hey start big and you will allways make a big hole no matter what"... nothing wrong with that but even a 45 size hole in nothing too importand doesn't allways work and... because of recoil... it is difficult to make a round guarenteed to penetrate.... solid copper bullets are closest to big bore full caliber holes at very high velocity and penetration with managable recoil.

That being said... you need a long gun for the ninjas.    A handgun should probly only be used when you really don't want a lot of penetration.

lazs

[lazs2]

and patrone... I don't know but it appears that your testing was not very good.   No chrongraph data.. no energy data.   no load data at all.

testing was.... shooting at some vests hanging on a tree?   maybe at some soap blocks?  (we use ballistic gell here).

I just don't see how you got to your conclussions based on your methods unless your methods were very poor.

lazs

[mauser]

Lazs, Dune, Lasersailor are right.  This was posted by Dr. Gary Roberts, a very well regarded wound ballistician at the Tactical Forums:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000050#000000

..."Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system. "


If you have access to those journals cited, they'll make for some very educational reading.  The Terminal Effects forum, just like the other forums at TF are high signal to noise ratio places where professionals and hobbyists can go for information, not BS.  

mauser

[lasersailor184]

I'm talking about the standard 5.56 (.223) round Patrone.  The one used in the M16.  (not the AP rounds though).  When it hits flesh at a certain velocity, the bullet itself shatters, causing a more damaging wound.

A regular .22 caliber bullet does not.  It remains completely intact (besides a little deformation) and makes clean holes.

[Suave]

The FN P90 was designed for NATO tankers, specifically to be a compact personal defense weapon that could defeat body armor. FN P90s with gemtech mufflers were used in the japanese embassy takedown in Lima 1998 with good effect against body armor.

[patrone]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm talking about the standard 5.56 (.223) round Patrone.  The one used in the M16.  (not the AP rounds though).  When it hits flesh at a certain velocity, the bullet itself shatters, causing a more damaging wound.

A regular .22 caliber bullet does not.  It remains completely intact (besides a little deformation) and makes clean holes.

To my knowledge the M193 ammo is no longer used.
It has been replaced by the ss109, whitch is just a fullmetal bullet.