I Condemn The "fudged-up" Icon Settings

[6GunUSMC]

Having the tempest show up as a typhoon is just plain wrong... They were 2 different aircraft.

[straffo]

Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Having the tempest show up as a typhoon is just plain wrong... They were 2 different aircraft.

Like the 109E4 and the 109G10.

[6GunUSMC]

Originally posted by straffo
Like the 109E4 and the 109G10.

I think this new icon system needs to be canned

[lazs2]

It's a good idea.   If you depend on plane choice for winning then you need to have some of your unfair advantage negated.   Tempest should say temp tho.

lazs

[Urchin]

A typhoon would be pretty hard to tell from a tempest from 3 miles away.  

Once you get up close it would be a little more distinguisable... say, I dunno, maybe a half mile or so?  

Oh wait, that is the system they just implemented.  


Anyway, the only planes this really affects are the *really* early war planes (like the Spit I and Hurri I), and the LW planes.  

The rest (P-47D-11 vs P-47-D40 for instance) perform so similarly that plane X will have the same advantages over the D-11 that is does over the D-40.  

I can see the Spit 5/ Spit 9 possibly being affected since someone in a Spit 9 isn't going to turn with someone in a Spit 5 as readily as he might have turned with a Spit 5 wearing the Spit 9's skin (pre-icon change), but that isn't going to be a huge great deal since one of them or the other will be busy dealing with 2-3 more bad guys to really concern himself with the nuances of Spit 9 vs Spit 5.

Wotan makes a perfectly valid point about grabbing a 109E and rolling into a fight with it... it isn't (well, wasn't) a bad choice.  Firepower is decent, it turns a lot better than the other 109s, and you have an opportunity to get close.  When whatever plane you finally get saddled up on looks back and sees "109" and turns (because 109s can't turn, everyone knows that), the E could slide in there for a kill.  Now, when someone looks back and sees "109E", assuming they don't go "WTF is a 109E?" they'll just level out and leave.. pretty much any plane will dust a 109E.  It combines none of the strengths of the other 109s (climb, acceleration), with subpar "strengths" that are done much more effectively with another choice of plane (turning).

To be quite honest though, less than 1/2 of 1% of the kills in the MA are made by the types of planes that will be affected negatively by this choice.  So they basically already don't exist (in the context of the MA), so there is no downside to this move.

Actually just played with the numbers... out of 324,496 kills made by fighters in tour 60, 1,933 kills were from what I would term "early war" planes (Spit I, Hurri I, 109E, 110C, A6m2, F4F4).  Came out to .6%, or just a bit more than 1/2 of 1%.  

For anyone who is interested, the total for the LW planes that I think will be negatively affected by the move (109F-G6, 190A) came to 26,413 kills, or ~8.1%

[Cobra412]

Wotan love the "how to manual" statement.  Funny thing is I'll come into a fight with a B or D Pony and regardless of whether some nit wit like yourself is hoping to hide behind an icon and will engage you anyway.  So tell me who's timid the one? The one trying to hopefully hide behind an icon or the one who will engage you regardless of what your icon states in the first place and beat you at your own game?  

I'm just curious but do your really have to quote Marseille or is it because your incapable of thinking tactically on your own?  His experiences have little to do with how the arenas here are.  There was a difference between life and death for him and his opponents.  Here there is no such thing.  The advanced tactical doctrines of even the highest aces since the invention of the fighter aircraft won't always work here.  Real life combat and virtual combat don't share the same battle ground.  There are some common things between them but in a place such as this they are few and far between.  Since your the expert on combat tactics please show me how often such an incident that Marseilles talks about  in your quote that occurs in the MA or any other arena for that matter.  

Folks in early war birds should use the new icon system to their advantage.  Fly with a wingman with a late war bird, sucker the con in and then turn the tables on them.  Either way an early war bird isn't as defenseless as you try to make them out to be regardless of the icon system.  It still depends on the pilot.  A chitty pilot will always be a chitty pilot no matter what he/she flies in.  A pilot who is mediocre will have their ups and downs in an early war bird and a pilot who is beyond mediocre will still win more than they lose in an early war bird.  It seems your just making an excuse for you and others lack of ability to fight and win.  Probably no different than whatever silly excuse you used to go run to IL2.  I'am curious though why do you still frequent these boards?    

And btw Dipstick it's funny you should say that considering I've flown against many of your squadmates and heard exactly the opposite.  I've also flown with your squadmates and heard the opposite of what your agreeing to.  So are you just another guy jumping on the band wagon or do you actually have something worth a watermelon to say?  If I had to make a choice I'd say it's choice number 1.

[Urchin]

I can't speak for Wotan, but your argument of "well, bring a friend" seems kind of off-topic.  

What I am saying is that the change to the icon system will hurt LW planes in particular (it also hurts the early war planes, but they are so rare as to be nonexistant anyway, so who cares), because before the change, you could take up a F4 or E4 and fly it around, and people would assume that you were in a G-10.  This is nice because planes like a Spit 9 can't run from a G-10.. but they can (and will) run from an E-4.  So you could basically sucker the slow planes into a turn fight if you wanted to.  The fast ones would run anyway, but they'd run from a G-10 also so it is immaterial.

"How you (anyone) fly" has very little to do with it.  The only people that'll really be effected by this change are people like me who used to enjoy taking an E4 or F4 and flying around looking for a fight.  The (very few) folks that fly these planes in a nice, safe horde won't notice any difference, because it'll be hard for a con to pick them out for special treatment while he is dodging 4 or 5 other planes.

I really don't see any downside to it other than that, and since the effected communities are such small minorities I don't think it is a big deal.

[WMLute]

trying to figure out if i'm a "nub" or a "vet".........

[Cobra412]

Urchin I said that specifically because some folks seem to think that just because someone knows your in an early war bird means your screwed.  I'm giving them another option since it's obvious they are worried about holding their own alone in the aircraft they chose to fly.  Maybe I should cry about the same thing when someone alerts people that I'm in an area or my squad is and a group comes hunting for Mustangs.  Maybe I should tell HTC that I want it changed so people don't know who killed them till after I've landed because it's unfair that I don't get to hide my identity.  I mean in reality that's what these guys are asking for except for the fact it's dealing with their aircrafts model instead of the person themselves.  If I could hide my identity or squads identity it would be just as fair.  

I've beaten many people in the P-40E and P-40B which were flying late war birds by myself.  That was regardless if they tried to BnZ or TnB me.  I wasn't hidding behind an aircrafts icon hoping I'd fool someone and I didn't need a wingman either.  It seems because they have the option of more than just 2 variants for a particular airframe they want to try and use it to their advantage instead of just beating them outright.  They want to try and deceive their enemy so they can gain perk points and/or get a big hurrah from their buddies when they land kills in an early war bird so it boosts their egos.

It seems that it's the same thing over and over again.  People want to try and game the game as much as possible opposed to just play.  If you choose to fly an early war bird then that is your choice.  If you can't get kills in it now because you were relying on a bluff before then don't fly it.  If you flew it because you wanted to sucker people in so you could rack up your perk points (which is most likely the case for some) then now you have to earn the kills instead of relying on your bluff.  If you actually flew it in the past because it was more of a "challenge" then you should have no issues with the new icon system.  

Simple fact is if the con wants to fight they are going to fight whether it be in the tnb or the bnz and whether or not your an early war or late war bird.   You will still have folks who will also test the waters prior to engaging so a bluff won't always work.

Basically what it comes down to is some wish to prey on either new people in the game who don't know any better or people who aren't so new and fly wrecklessly on a constant basis.  If you flew the early war bird because it was a challenge (which I doubt the ones complaining do it for that reason) then you wouldn't care if they knew what plane your in.  You'd fight to better yourself in that plane regardless of how the con chooses to fight you.  You would lose some and you'd win some even if you were at a disadvantage because of your plane.  Nothing guarantees you that a con will choose to fight you or not fight you based on the plane your flying.  It also doesn't guarantee that your early war plane will be priority number one on their target list either just because it's an early war plane.  

Lute you might wanna ask Wotan about that.  He's the expert on who's a nub and who's a vet.  I'm sure he'd be glad to give you an answer.  It seems if your a vet (time on station)you know it all and if you are a nub (lack of time on station) you don't know chit.

I say do it like Sunking suggested to an extent.  Since it's such a disadvantage for another player to know the plane your in give no plane icon.  Give them a rook, knight or bish icon with distance and nothing else.  I'm sure though that would be going too far for some and would be yet unfair again.  Then their bluffs wouldn't work because they don't even have a clue as to what they are fighting until they are almost totally committed and their bluffs could backfire on them.  Lets get Marseilles opinion on this.  Will the real Marseille please stand up.

[Urchin]

I see your point, I just don't agree with it .  The type of plane you (general) fly has a *huge* effect on what you can do.  All planes (well, most planes) have strengths and weaknesses vis a vis one another.  

The only *real* strength a plane like a 109E or 109F has against a Spitfire is the fact that the Spit pilot will assume it is a 109G and react accordingly.  The Spit literally does everything better than a 109E or F.  It accelerates better, climbs better (or in the case of the F, the same), turns better, and is roughly as fast, or faster.  

So the only real hope a 109E/F pilot has vs a Spit is to get the Spit turning, but not turning as hard as it could.  If the Spit thinks it is a G-10 behind him, he isn't going to turn as hard as he possibly could, which might let the 109E/F get a shot in.

But in general, you are right.  For a lot of planes (example P40B vs E) the plane is so outclassed vs every common plane in the MA it really doesn't matter which version you fly.  The icon still reads P40, which is about the same as reading "KILLMEPLZKTHXBYE", except much shorter.  

The "bluff" only works for certain planes in certain situations against some other planes, it isn't a universal thing.  The LW planes definately benefitted more than the other planes from the icon system we had in place before now.

The only real effect this is going to have is that for a relatively uncommon set of planes to coalesce into one plane (109s -> G-10, 190 -> D9) because the older varients really won't be worth flying anymore.

[AKFokerFoder+]

In the 190A8 it wasn't about bluffing per se.  

It is that it is a slower plane than the D9's Pony Ds and LA7's.

I liked the challenge of not flying a late war bird, and trying to do well in it.  I personally believed that the A8 could get you about a 40 to 1 K/D in the old MA if you worked on it  Now, I will never find out.  Certainly the Dora is a 40+  K/D bird, but that is no big feat is such an uber plane.

Before they would think you were probably a D9, and would avoid flying you down. Now they know they can fly you down, and do.

So the option is either to be extremely timid, or to go to a newer faster plane set.  

Urchin said;

For anyone who is interested, the total for the LW planes that I think will be negatively affected by the move (109F-G6, 190A) came to 26,413 kills, or ~8.1%

So the result will be fewer people flying those models, and since we are only a 8% minority who cares?

What we will end up with is more Dora's, LA7's and Pony D's.  The number of Spitties and NIKI's will probably not be effected much as most LW dirvers like the BNZ planes.  So we end up with less diversity, and lack of diversity is always a big whine on the BBS's.  

So we narrow the planeset, and the game becomes even more stratified.  

Personally I am switching to a Dora for now, but I just may go to the LA7.

One more LALA, one less A8, just what this arena needs.  I guess that's what most of the 92% seem to want.

[Black Sheep]

Well so far noone has complained too awful much about the icons since the change - It aint that big a deal it seems - well until they get within 1000

[Cobra412]

Everyone disagrees with someone else about someone elses opinion so I can respect that.

Saying that these planes are worthless now still relies on the person who your flying against to know what your capable of as a plane and a pilot.  They can still over and under estimate your capabilities.  It's still a judgement call that not a whole lot of the community would make the correct decision on in the first place even if they knew the differences of variant of a particular airframe.  That only leaves a select group of individuals that will know how to capitalize on these differences in the end.  

I can think of alot of well known pilots that can turn a early war bird into a killing machine (Shane, Manetmp, XtrmeJ, Leviathn, AKAK, Yucca, JBs, SHawk, Stang, Wadke, Redd, Mars, Waffle, ect...).  These folks can take an aircraft that should without a doubt not survive a fight against a particular bird and end up winning regularly even if the other bird fights smart and to it's strengths.  I just don't really buy the whole because you know what it is now means you can't or won't be able to win.  That is deteremined by both plane and pilot.

[SlapShot]

The only *real* strength a plane like a 109E or 109F has against a Spitfire is the fact that the Spit pilot will assume it is a 109G and react accordingly. The Spit literally does everything better than a 109E or F. It accelerates better, climbs better (or in the case of the F, the same), turns better, and is roughly as fast, or faster.

So the only real hope a 109E/F pilot has vs a Spit is to get the Spit turning, but not turning as hard as it could. If the Spit thinks it is a G-10 behind him, he isn't going to turn as hard as he possibly could, which might let the 109E/F get a shot in.

I don't know .. I have been flying for over 3 years now, primarily a Spit V pilot (altho I have flown many planes successfully) and all I see is 109 ... I woundn't know or care what variant your flying. If your gonna fight with me, then all I care about is getting behind ya. In the right situation, I don't care what variant of 109 your in ... and you made a mistake ... you will die.

Bottom line ... I wouldn't know and E from an F or a G ... doesn't matter to me. If you want to fight ... then so be it ... the better man will fly away ... If I reverse you and you run ... so be that too ... you were still beat ... you just lived to tell people about it. I just look for the next target that WILL fight.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by WMLute
trying to figure out if i'm a "nub" or a "vet".........

Definately a "nub" Lute ... feel better ?