Woah! look at this ki84!

[FDutchmn]

originally posted by Hawklore:
Divine Wind...

It's sort of like a Holy Knight on a single crusade..

They had guts to do it, just like we had guts to land on Iwo Jima...

Skin it, don't be PC, PC is stupid..

I hope this helps...

First of all, this forum is about skins and sounds.  I will try to keep this post within bounds of the purpose of the forum.

Now, the origins of the word kamikaze. http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~gensei/genko.htm  This is a simple page which maintained by an individual.  It has the jist of how the word came around.  Originally, it was a word to describe the phenomenon that prevented Genghis Khan from invading Japan.  Twice were Khan's fleet destroyed by typhoons.  This led to the belief that God's or Divine Wind (kami = Holy, God, Divine. kaze = wind) saved Japan from invasion.

When this word was applied as we know it in WW2 (Kamikaze Tokkoutai = Kamikaze Special Attack Unit), it was in the belief or wish of preventing an invasion.  As Kweassa accurately described, most of them, if not all, were not for the idea of dying and they were in their late teens.  It was crazy times which led people to force each other into one direction.  The word Kamikaze was a catch phrase to get people going into the idea of protecting the country from invasion.  Fear dictated such drastic action which as we know it today, it was the most idiotic thing to do.  It was crazy times which led to crazy measures.  People knew it back then, but what was the alternative?  Live in defeat and in uncertainty of what might happen or die gloriously as you know it?  People made sure that it was glorified in order to justify such crazy action.  This is likewise for Seppuku or Harakiri.  

It was the case that many a times, people did not know where the orders came from.  For example, I read an account of a pilot on the M6A1 Aichi Seiran bomber.  This bomber could be launched from the I-400 class submarine carrier and he was the leader of his unit.  Because the training of the pilots for the M6A1 was exceptional and quite costly, top command said that these pilots were not to be expended in Kamikaze attacks.  However, one night, the pilot found his crew tinkering with the bomber so that the bomb could not be released.  When he demanded to know, the crew could not answer.  When the orders were cascaded down, it was changed without anyone being able to tell who changed it or why.  It was just is.  Doing Kamikaze attacks became the norm as it was crazy times.

Kamikaze, while glorified, symbolizes the worst times in Japanese history.  I think we can see the difference between a knight on a crusade to save the holy city of Jerusalem and a pilot on a Kamikaze mission.

Now, then onto "censorship" or would HTC find such skins appropriate for use in AH, online at least.  Is this comparable with the Swastika?  I don't think so... The Swastika is banned because it symbolized a regime that brought much despair in Europe.  It use is prohibited by law in Germany for fear that it would be idolized again.  What I can say about the slogan or wording on the plane is that Kamikaze is what we did onto ourselves.  While it does symbolize the saddest times of Japanese history, there is no law for it, unlike for the Swastika.  Therefore, it is a question whether HTC would like to use AH as a media to promote such discussion.  On the BBS, this is possible.  However, if you ask me if I would like to see that online, as AH is a very graphic game, I would say it would make me cringe.  I believe Mitsu would feel the same as Karnak described his conversation with him.  Case of point, http://www.snobuy.com/dg9/dg9-1.html, I am not sure if you can read the Japanese description, however, it does describe the wording "Hicchin" (Must Sink) as "Itaitashi" (meaning it hurts).  I would not sure if the word offensive is the right word to describe this but it seems rather raw.

that's my two cents...

[Nath_____]

DAMN that's a chintzy looking skin.

[Karnak]

An example of the Japanese government's refusal to be honest about Japanese actions in WWII:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/04/06/international/i132653D02.DTL

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by Karnak
An example of the Japanese government's refusal to be honest about Japanese actions in WWII:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/04/06/international/i132653D02.DTL

thanks, Karnak. I was avoid this part of the discussion in light of  the scope of this forum.  However, now that you mention it let me comment on it as well.

We still got lots of problems we need to address.  The article you kindly posted the link to is one of those problems, especially if we want to grow internationally.  I think (probably an amatuer-ish assumption) is that we are an island country which makes travel difficult into and out of the country, thereby making cultural exchange a bit more difficult.   This is different from Germany where people can just walk across the border.  It is my hopes that we are now in a position that we cannot avoid talking about such issues.

Did you know that it was forbidden by law in Korea to have cultural exchange with Japan until we both co-hosted the World Cup?  Until then we didn't get much Korean movies or TV, even artifacts from their national museum.  Now, there is a "Korea Boom" now in Japan.  We hear music on the radio, etc.  It is now changing.  I hope that we will be able to get somewhere with our past.

There are somethings which bother me of course, like the govenor of Tokyo is very militaristic and our present Prime Minister has ties with the former Prime Minister who wore battle fatigues during Disaster Prevention day, which is otherwise a civil event.  Now, we are talking about changing the constitution so we can legally have a military force to send to places like Iraq and do a pre-emptive strike against North Korea.  For me, we shouldn't be even doing that until we talk and settle key issues about our past, although I don't think we should be changing our constitution anyway.

well, that's it for now... i gots to go to work... I am willing to chat, but please allow me some time to compose a thoughtful response.

[Kweassa]

This thread may yet turn into a political one, but what's interesting is I am from Korea, right next to Japan, and both FD and me have a chance to share our views on this matter. It's not often Koreans and Japanese actually have a chance to talk about this stuff - which we usually avoid, in the presence of one another. (and the fact that both are fluent in at least one common language, so there's no trouble in sharing opinions)

 What worries the Korean people, in the article Karnak has linked, is that the new history textbooks are 'revisioned' by the (not sure if I translated this right) "The Society for Making New Textbooks", which its political/cultural heritage almost directly descends from days of 19th century expansionists. The annexation of the Korean peninsula in 1910, was not a singular event. There has been a history of expansionist ideals in Japan which existed for at least more than a generation, before finally Korea came under military rule of Japan in 1910. These political lines, have never been properly severred, or brought under justice, and still thrives in Japanese politics today.

 This is the reason why the Asian countries near Japan, are ever so watchful of its action. Nazi Germany, was brought under justice. While the 'hunt' still goes on nowadays(it was not an uncommon thing to see in the German news articles that a hidden Nazi collaborator had been recently uncovered, and brought to justice, despite after all these years!), most of the Nazi remnants have been completely washed away from German politics.

 Japan, was a different case. It's militaristic leaders were spared, and came to power again - this time, as collaborators to the US rule.

 This exact same thing happened in Korea between 1948~1950, where Korean collaborators to the Japanese Empire, were on the verge of facing punishment on grounds of high treason, when the first Government of modern Korea offered them amnesty. They emerged again as public officials, this time, as collaborators to the Government and the US military rule, and became useful hunting dogs in dishing out the Socialist/Communist ingredient in Southern Korea - whom, were the people that struggled most fiercely in the peninsula in efforts to gain independance.

 A sinister comedy broke out where the people who fought for independance, in a country which recently gained that independance, were now being arrested and prosecuted by the same people who had arrested and prosecuted them when the country was under Japanese rule.

 This grim past was forbidden to discussion until the recent democratic changes in Korea. Thus, the Korean people are now aware of how important it is to set the history right, and bring past sins to face justice... and even today, there is a strong resistance to this "Righting Past Wrongs" movement from the old conservatives of Korea. These rightwing conservatives, who take up all of the most importance spots in the Korean society, ranging from powerful economists to politicians and journalists, are the same people that became rich and powerful as collaborators to the Japanese Empire, the US Military rule, and the Anti-communist witch hunt Government during 1948~1992.

 Most of the Americans do not understand why Germany or France, or other European countries are so jittery about dealing with its old Nazi past. They think that it is an overkill, or foolish thing to do, which in fact, is not.

 
 Take the current Japanese politicians for example.

 The Prime Minister of Japan, Goizumi Junichiro, is the son of Goizumi Junya. He was the former Minister of Defense, with close ties to Fukuda Dakeo, the Prime Minister of Japan in the '70s. Fukuda Dakeo himself, is closely affiliated to people like Sato Eisaku or Gishi Nobusuke. These people all form a 'group' of the ultra-rightwing militarists, from Yoshida Shigeru, who served as Prime Minister of Japan for 5 terms after the war. Before the war, he was on a diplomatic mission to Great Britain.

 All of the current politicians, and the members of the staff, are either direct family members of the above politicians, or were influenced/taught by them. All of the high-ranking Japanese politicians, come from this rightwing group. Not a single PM, ever came from outside this group.



 And what are these guys saying?

* Japan does not need to 'apologize' to any country
* The past must be considered as a past
* Japan needs its own nuclear arsenal
* Japan needs to build up its own military
* Japan needs to be proud of its (military) history
* The annexation of Asian countries during the days of war, was for Asia's own good.
* The grief and suffering the Japanese military rule did to its colonies, is grossly exaggerated.
* Any attempts to bring up such grim history to light, is an outrage and an ill intent to destroy the integrity of Japan

 and etc etc..

 In this context, Japan is now firing up a territorial dispute regarding an island which has been Korean territory for more than a millenia, and is currently being governed by Korea...some more territorial dispute against China and Russia, and it's also changing its history textbooks.

 ....
 

 History, is not a dead thing, at least in this part of the world.

[Rolex]

Oh no... don't get me started.

I can understand and respect FDutchman's views. I will say that his english fluency must come from living overseas and being exposed to a different persective than if he had never been overseas.

Sorry, but the 'island' theory is just an excuse the oyaji's use and I hope your experience overseas will allow you to challenge it. Japan continues to be an insular society - perhaps the most insular in the world - by choice.

Governor Ishihara is certainly a fool. I've heard him speak at an event and I truly believe the man is either an idiot or mentally ill. The scary part is that he was re-elected with over 70% of the vote against 19 other candidates.

Koizumi is a wolf in sheep's clothes. Here is a man with long ties to the rightists and a man of low honor. He divorced his pregnant wife and left her, his two children and his new son in the 1980's because the LDP powerbrokers told him that she was not a good wife for a politician. He has even refused to meet the (now grown) son born after the divorce.

The changes to the textbooks are astounding. I have seen a tremendous change in Japan over the last decade and this shift to punishing teachers for not singing Kimigayo loud enough and other ridiculous things are not good for Japan.

The politicians are manipulating public opinion now to stir up nationalism because the younger generation will be taihen when the oyaji's want to retire. Half of a generation of freeters will find a difficult economy when they are in their late 30's and 40's and won't be able to survive, let alone support all the old, retired onara's.

All politicians try to stir up irrational nationalism when times seem bad. The Nazis did it and Japan did it during the world depression.

Quite frankly, I've had enough of this recent crop of cheap carnival tricksters in the US, UK, Japan, France and Korea. But, let me clear about this: Japan's right wing dominated LDP are not acting in the best interest of Japan. They will definitely succeed in molding the minds of the kids with this revisionist nonsense. That will only create more problems for them when they are adults.

I'm not sure about the kamikaze skin. I have to give it some more thought.

[FDutchmn]

originally posted by Rolex
Sorry, but the 'island' theory is just an excuse the oyaji's use and

oh Rolex, ya call me an oyaji!?  Sheesh, I didn't think I was that old...

originally posted by Rolex
Japan continues to be an insular society - perhaps the most insular in the world - by choice.

yes, I agree... it is more by choice today, rather than a physical barrier especially with all the mass transportation and information highway available today.  Not to forget that we have mass imports of material from all parts of the world.  However, I would not characterize it as an excuse just yet, because it still is very real as behavior of people.  It helps them set the scope of work, laws, standards, etc.  It is just inherent on behavior.  To quote Dr. Edwin Reichauer from his book The Japanese Today, "Japan's isolation is now only a psychological remanant."

However, this must change... and soon, as we have a shortage labor force.  Soon, we will be importing  people together with their ideas, etc. not just material.  If we don't open up our society, we will not be doing that adequately.

originally posted by Kweassa
What worries the Korean people, in the article Karnak has linked, is that the new history textbooks are 'revisioned' by the (not sure if I translated this right) "The Society for Making New Textbooks", which its political/cultural heritage almost directly descends from days of 19th century expansionists.

If I take this pessimistically, this is a huge problem that we have been seeing again and again.  This is no good... However, if I take this optimistically, it is now provoking communication between Korea and Japan.  For example, just yesterday morning, there was news on NHK, the national TV station, that both Korea and Japan has decided to setup a research team in order to come to a common understanding on history.  This could have been attempted before, but if it has it hasn't succeeded yet.  However, we have to try this again and again.

Where I get this kind of optimism, is what I saw on TV.  I forget the name of the show... it was where Beat Takeshi, a comedian in Japan, got representatives from different countries and basically provoke them to talk, on sensitive topics like our Prime Minister visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which holds remains of Class A War Criminals, and textbook issues.  The show as in the beginning... ugly, at least by Japanese standards... people yelling at each other, interjecting while the other was speaking.  It was more throwing and clashing of opinions, without listening.  However, one of the comments made was something to the extent that we have to talk, even amongst the Japanese, in order for us to go somewhere.

It is the case that I also have difficulty talking about such issues even amongst my colleagues at work.  This is not something that is easy to bring up.  I did manage to discuss briefly on the skin issue, though.  I brought it up because I noticed that the word Kamikaze seemed to be associated with the Navy rather than the Army, and I ask two guys what they knew about the word.  We didn't have an answer to that question but I explained why I brought it up, explained the game AH2, and what is being talked about.  They said that there is no way to stop someone from using the skin, but they wouldn't like people using it without knowing that wording meant.  

If I don't bring it up like that, we usually don't talk about such issues.  People in Japan tend to avoid such issues... why?... probably because it is not pleasant to talk about.  We really have to get the energy and the guts to admit our wrong doings.  The easiest way to deal with such confrontation is to say that we were coarsed into the war, and that we had no other choice, etc. which is probably what we see usually.  If this is handled wrongly, it ends up in placing politicians like Gov. Ishihara as head of Tokyo.  He does have good policies for pollution control like cutting down on diesel engines in Tokyo, but I do not agree with his views on military and history.

Anyway, back to optimism, it was on that same TV show I think... where they were interviewing a woman from Southeast Asia who married a Japanese man.  She was introduced to his mother and the mother asked her how she felt about Japan.  The woman being young said outright about Japan not apologizing for the war and that she was not happy about that.  The mother, astounded and shocked, got down on her knees and apologized profuriously for what happened in WW2.  What struck me the most is not what the mother did but how the hosts of the show reacted to this interview.  There was a bit of silence, some of them had tears in their eyes and one of them said, "I am relieved that someone could actually say that [the apology]".

While it is a subject that is hard to bring up, I do have some friends who shares my views.  A colleague of mine who I worked with during my graduate school came from Nagasaki.  He carries a Hibakusha card (certification that he is a decendant or a victim of the atomic bomb).  He gets to have medical treatment paid by the national government.  I have high respect for him.  I would have expected him to be nationalistic, especially if he felt victimized.  On contrary it was the other way around, maybe because he was from Nagasaki, which was the only open port in Japan when we secluded ourselves from the rest of the world.  He was the type of person who says that we have to apologize and set things right, to get on with our lives.

On the dark side, about 10 years ago, the Mayor of Nagasaki openly criticized that the emperor has not apologized for WW2.  He was shot by a ultra-rightist.

A couple of years ago, we shot and sank a North Korean spy boat.  This was retrieved from the ocean floor and was displayed in Tokyo.  I went to see it with a colleague of mine and I was not happy about his comment that this justifies that we need a military.  Well, these guys were coming to Japan to sell drugs and we are buying from them.  Although, they have military backup, they are here on business.

We recently had a Chinese submarine infringing Japanese territorial waters.  This incident was not really helpful...

There is a rekindling of territorial disputes like Kweassa mentions...  well, I could go on and on... but I need a break from this... I donno how to conclude but this is what I think...  I think this is enough... for the moment at least...

[Karnak]

Thanks Kweassa, Flying Dutchman.  It is very interesting to read these things from the perspectives of Korean and Japanese people, not filtered by US News as merely a minor bit of distant data.

[moot]

In any case, it's very much kamikaze to fly into 5:1 odds, purpose which this plane serves well.

I'd definitely use this camo, for the same reason I use the G2 cow camo.

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by moot
In any case, it's very much kamikaze to fly into 5:1 odds, purpose which this plane serves well.

I'd definitely use this camo, for the same reason I use the G2 cow camo.

geez, moot... it's too bad that you cannot see the difference between flying against all odds and flying to die.

Given that, why don't you do it?  And submit to HTC and see if they would have it online.  Kweassa already declined to do so, because lord knows it could very well be that in that actual plane was Korean pilot whose name was just disguised as a Japanese!

[FDutchmn]

Just something that I picked up today in the Newspapers....

Ex-kamikaze pilot hits peace note

[moot]

I'm not doing it because I don't have the time nor the patience to do it well.
I appreciate the difference, and it doesn't bother me; everyone dies, expectedly or not.

[Mustaine]

here's the thread about the kamakaze skin....

notice it is the same plane as in the new thread.

read the whole discussion, i did last time

[Krusty]

I re-read it (read most of it last time, forgot which skin it was lol).

I'm still doing the skin.

If HTC rejects it, so be it. if they accept it, I will fly with it.

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by Krusty
I re-read it (read most of it last time, forgot which skin it was lol).

I'm still doing the skin.

If HTC rejects it, so be it. if they accept it, I will fly with it.

ok...

in case you missed in your other thread though:

Originally posted by FDutchmn
Ever since this topic has been brought up again, I have been surfing the web to seek answers to some of the questions that has been brought up on this thread.... ...although I myself may be too sensitive about it.  I wish not that your work or AH would be associated with them(just saying)...