Author Topic: Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...  (Read 5769 times)

Offline Replicant

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2001, 02:45:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steven:
Dowding,

Looks like I edited my previous msg while you posted a response to me.  You are quick!

But you misunderstood.  What do you want us to do about the IRA?  Prevent Irish-Americans from transferring funds to family in Ireland?  Invade?

Of course we want to stamp out terrorism.  We do not send missiles into Irish strongholds because you are with us in the fight against terrorism and you are quite capable.  However, when it involves a state that is not with us in our fight against terrorism and in fact openly supports it and proof is available that the support is overt, then yes... it is a very different situation and we have to intervene and cross borders.

I still say it's different.  Also, the main topic of this thread is that America finally knows the pain of terrorism though we've gotten slightly off topic.

-Puke

I think what Dowding actually meant is that several known terrorist organisations  who were on the 'international' known list were permitted to enter the USA without any hassle.  Only within the last 6 months has 2 known terrorist organisation actually been banned enterring the USA now (including the Provisional IRA but not the 'Real' IRA for eg).  The problem we saw is how could any country distinguish one terrorist organisation to another.

Regards

Nexx
NEXX

Offline Steven

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
Jammer,

<<<The last 60 years the worst terroist in the world has probably been the US, only it has not been scrutinized in the public medias, and in other cases it has been labeled as "defence" against "internal agression" as in the case of Vietnam or Korea, thousands of miled away from american soil.>>>

The bias is on your end trying to lump such things in with terrorism.  You start your count about the time of the Battle of Britain which was the beginning of what was a European war and saw the refinement of the terror bombings of cities and civilians.

Korea:  NATO action to come to the aid of an ally.  This isn't just USA.  The Punsan pocket was a very small area of territory which is when NATO was really able to jump in with force.  Clear warfare, not a terrorist action.  A war initiated by the North.

Vietnam: The incursion was ONLY North to South and nothing else.  S. Vietnam and America was not trying to invade N. Vietnam and there were no intentions to take down their government but only prevent the infiltration of the South.   Military actions were very closely controled in an effort to spare civilian casualties like no other war before.  No bombing of dikes, damns or of trucks more than 300 yards off a road or near any villages.  Couldn't bomb SAMS or trucks being offloaded from ships but had to attack them one by one as they came down the trail or shot a deadly missile at you.  It's the effort to protect civilians that dragged this war on and made it more deadly in the end.  However, it was purely defensive in nature with no landings to cut into N Vietnam and force them to shift attention from S Vietnam and possibly force an open field battle.  I don't necessarily disagree with our course of action in Vietnam; however, it was nothing close to terrorism.

These things are not acts of terror on our part.  In fact, WW2 Europe, Korea and Vietnam were efforts to come to an ally's aid.  And don't think it wasn't requested.

I'm going to refrain from posting any more on these topics even though some of you have really angered me with your comments.  Big bad America beats everyone up...or, we don't jump in when we should, or "NOW the USA knows the horror of terrorism."  And now I read that we are being called the greatest actor of terrorism.  We don't think it's sport dying for everyone else.  We don't get any higher seat in heaven for it.

-Puke

Offline Jammer

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »
Steven: of course you don't think it's a sport dying for others.

However, the real reasons for the US to intervene in Korea and Vietnam was hardly good-hearted kindness. Nor was it really to prevent communism to spread as there were never any threat or real evidence of this being a real danger. The purpose was to strenghten US influence in the region and to remove the threat of 'the good example'. Countries that dare to try to limit the possabilities of US and western financial and political influence was very likely to be declared for "communistic" and hence must be "protected against internal agressors", either directly or indirect (like in the case with Nicaragua). The media has almost always been very obedient and uncritically repeated the official agenda ad nauseum until the truth is no longer possible to see.
Lies is mixed with desinformation and this way the public are kept in the illusion that 'we are there to help them', or 'we are defending the libery and freedom of the world', which is very strange since several democratic governments has been overthrown by US intervention and replaced by puppet cabinets that know their place and don't question the US right to exploit cheap labour and other resources.

All in the name of 'free trade' and 'capitalism', the mantra of our time.  Capitalism when it fits and protectionism when suitable. 'Free trande' on the conditions of the masters.

If you are interested in further studies I can recommend John Pilger "Hidden Agenda" and Noam Chomsky's "Rollback" article series in "Z Magazine", 1995.

It's a scary thought, but what if it's true? Have you ever even considered the possability that we (the west) are no the saintly good guys we pretend to be?
Have you considered the possability that we are selfish, greedy and short-sighted?
That we plunder, kill and whip lesser nations into obedience, through economical punishment as well as trough subversive activities (supporting terrorist organizations etc).

If you have the guts to think outside the mainstream media and think for yourself you will probably see that there's indeed a 'brave new world' out there. A world where the poor two thirds get the crumbs from the rich one thirds table. And they are supposed to be grateful too.

  :mad:

Offline Thrawn

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2001, 06:00:00 PM »
Well said Jammer.  I believe this is a time that we should be questioning our goverments actions more, not less. Our leaders decisions will have such a greater effect, on our countries and the world in general, and especially the men and women we are sending off to die.  No reason why we should think like mindless zealots.

Offline Steven

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
I lost out in my fight to not respond.  Anyway, I'll pass on reading the works of an anti-capatilist and an old-liner communist.

-Puke

Offline Jammer

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2001, 05:33:00 AM »
Sorry to hear that Steven.

The "See no evil, hear no evil" mentality is really the main problem. You dismiss opinions as "communist" because you have all been thaught that anyone opposing the western foreign politics must be either insane or a communist, or probably both.

If you don't ever consider questioning the stuff that the power feeds you then you are truly unfree.

Note, I'm not personally attacking you Steven, sorry if it comes across that way. I'm speaking in a general way, and I'm sure you are a great guy. It's just the "knee jerk "reaction a lot of people display when the "official version" is challenged that I wanted to point out.

I can't make you think differently. I can tell you what I have found out by reading and trying to make up my OWN mind, going beyond the Murdoch-Turner conglomerates that has more or less monopolized the "third power" in the western world.

Cheers,

Offline AKDejaVu

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2001, 08:42:00 AM »
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The "See no evil, hear no evil" mentality is really the main problem.

That's a very easy thing to say for someone that chooses what he wants to see.

AKDejaVu

Offline Jammer

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
Well if I 'choose' to see the uncomfortable view on things and you 'choose' to see the comfortable view, then we have a difference to discuss.

If all chose to see the same thing then there'd be no discussion and hence no democracy.

I'm aware of both views, and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. To outright deny to give any credit to critical views and opinions is something close to fanatism. If you don't critically review your own leaders and leadership and what propaganda they feed you then you are close to the Orwellian version of '1984'. If you let the powers that be to control your mind by propaganda then you are nothing more than a drone or minon.

Free your mind!

Cheers,

Offline AKDejaVu

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
Jammer, if you choose to see only one side of things then call others blind for not seeing it... there is something of a paradox.

Basically.. take off the blinders.

AKDejaVu

Offline Jammer

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2001, 09:28:00 AM »
I see both views as I said...but if no one challenge the mainstream views and official propagande, tell me, where do we end up?

Please read my post again and comment each part of it. Then we can have a discussion.

  :)

Cheers,

Offline AKDejaVu

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2001, 09:33:00 AM »
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Well if I 'choose' to see the uncomfortable view on things and you 'choose' to see the comfortable view, then we have a difference to discuss.

Its a matter of not choosing simply because its outlandish or unpopular.

Your comments on Korea speak for themselves.  You are might be looking at the whole picture, but you are ignoring most of it for the sake of being unpopular.  Whatever floats your boat.

AKDejaVu

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

Offline lazs1

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
Ok guys... lets try to clear this up a little...  The war on terrorism needs to be fought against all terrorists by all civilized countries.

If, for instance, an IRA training camp is found in a remote U.S. location.... U.S. government should notify those most affected (U.K.) and a joint action taken or (better but unlikely) let the U.K. have free reign to handle it as they see fit with safe transport  to the area.   Anyone funding terrorists groups should have an accident.
lazs

Offline Steven

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2001, 11:51:00 AM »
Jammer,

Your words come across from on high down towards the rest of us.  I may not be well versed on middle-east matters, the Korean war or Afghan war, but I am very well versed on the events of our Vietnam War being a student of the topic for the past twenty years.  Again, I'll pass on the readings you've suggested and it's not due to any blinders I may have.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

Offline Jammer

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
Steven, I respect that.

I'm not trying to come across as 'better' or 'higher' than anyone else here. English is my second language, and I might express my self in way that might sound different from what I intend.

If I can get only one more person the critically review what's being propagated to him/her, then I've reached my goal.

I don't suggest you should accept my view anymore than anyone elses view. But if you draw your conclusions exclusively on what you learn from offical channels and monopolized media, then we all are a step closer to totalitarism.

As I said, I respect everyones right to an opinion - and if your opinoin is based on facts, then so be it.

However, it's ALWAYS interesting to question 'facts', when they are presented by a party in a ongoing conflict, or by a party that is by some way dependant or connected to the power structure in our society.

Thank you. I hope I didn't waste you time.

Here's a link if you don't want to pick up the book:

John Pilger: Vietnam; 'the longest war'

"At any given moment, there is a sort of all pervading orthodoxy, a general tacit agreement not to discuss large and uncomfortable facts."
George Orwell

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]

Offline Toad

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Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism...
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2001, 11:59:00 AM »
Who was it who said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own set of facts."?

I know I've read it somewhere, can't remember if it was attributed.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!