Vietnam marks 30th anniversary of war's end

[lasersailor184]

Actually, the 2 million people figure isn't as random as you think.



Due to the way the war was fought it was very difficult to count casualties on the vietnamese side.


So at worst estimates right now say that 2 million vietnamese died, north and south.


However, that number is not broken up into combatants, civilians or deaths at whoever's hands.

It just said that there were 2 million vietnamese dead who were alive 10 years before.

[Excel1]

Originally posted by Hangtime
The sheep wailed, goats tore at their beards.. the mourners, to this day; still fill the streets on shearing day.

Not even close.

It was an unpopular war as you would know.

Those that came back were treated with disdain, those few that didn't were just forgotten- except by their families. It's only recently their names are finally being added to the cenotaphs that commemorate all NZs war dead. It's shameful, but better late than never.

Excel

[Habu]

There is a school of thought developing here (lasersailer) that anyone who died in Vietnam regardless of side, civilian or not, natural causes or not, was the fault of the US because if there was no war there would not have been any deaths.

Also using Communist casualties figures is acceptable because we now know that during the war they actual lowered the official death counts to preserve moral (so we can now trust their new numbers (whatever they are) and we know that they would never raise them artificially now that they are trying to guilt the US into more aid and trade).

Using that logic I would like to blame every death from any cold war conflict on Russia, because if there was no Russia there would not have been any Vietnam nor Korea nor any of the hundreds in insurgencies in places like Borneo, Africa and South and Central American. In fact I would like to blame Russia for WW2 as well because if Hitler had not have started it then for sure Stalin would have. And lets not forget all those people who died between the wars after the Russian revolution.

So based on these undeniable facts, I can now positively blame Russia for over 2 Billion deaths. This is a FACT. A billion is 1,000,000,000 people (we are not using the Euroweene definition of a million million but the proper US definition of 1000 million).

So all you anti US retards out there, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, the 2 million people figure isn't as random as you think.



Due to the way the war was fought it was very difficult to count casualties on the vietnamese side.


So at worst estimates right now say that 2 million vietnamese died, north and south.


However, that number is not broken up into combatants, civilians or deaths at whoever's hands.

It just said that there were 2 million vietnamese dead who were alive 10 years before.

Yeah, but Gixer has some secret source that says 2 million civilians were killed by the US, so whatever you say is not true.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Habu
So based on these undeniable facts, I can now positively blame Russia for over 2 Billion deaths. This is a FACT. A billion is 1,000,000,000 people (we are not using the Euroweene definition of a million million but the proper US definition of 1000 million).

So, every Russian is responsible for killing himself 1000 times. It's even better then Hangtime's description of his missions.

In WWII USSR lost 27 million out of it's 170 million population. Almost 20 million were civilians.

Modern "liberastic historians" estimate Soviet losses (armed forces only) up to 40-60 million, using some secret demographic and sociological techniques. Solzhenitsyn said about 50 millions of victims of Evil Stalin's Gulag. I look around and still see people, and it makes me wonder: according to the most honest, advanced and true Western "historical science" there must be not enough people around to populate Moscow, not speaking about remaining 1/7th part of land on Earth...

Keep believing this propaganda crap.

I have deepest respect for Hangtime and other Vietnam war vets (not for criminals like Calley's platoon), but denying massive bombings of Hanoi, Haifon and other cities is stupid. And yes, I am proud that my country helped Vietnamese defend their land and population.

[Hangtime]

Jeeze.. we musta fouled up somewhere, bigtime. We wuz SUPPOSED ta be bombing trees & bridges, occasionally we'd actually try & hit a suspected road junction or target Uncle Ho's Floating Malt Shop & Monkey Meat Emporium.

Whoda guessed there were gomers under all those trees??  ..and after 10 years, you'd think they'd pick a better place to hide, like an airfield or a military barracks.

[Habu]

Yes but using the logic of a guy or two who post here Russia is responsible for every death is every war and every inserection since the revolution that it was in, supported, financed or had any involvment whatsoever in.

So my figure of 2 Billion stands.

Of course if you think this is nonsense then perhaps you can understand how the 2 million civilian deaths attributed to the US in Vietnam war is also nonsense.

[Boroda]

maybe 6 million Jews are unproven too?...

As for me - I'll believe Vietnamese side. It's just my personal choice, based on experience with "trusted" Western "historical data".

Sorry to say it, but genocide was in US military plans since 1945. Guess against which country.

To Hangtime: my Uncle will be unable to sleep when he'll know the breathtaking truth: US planes he shot down were carrying humanitarian aid and Christmas presents! His SAM position got hit only because he interfered into the process of familiarizing Vietnamese with Western values and lifestyle

[NUKE]

And yes, I am proud that my country helped Vietnamese defend their land and population.

I didn't realise that Russia helped defend South Vietnam from the invading North.

Thanks for all the help.

[Hangtime]

Hiya Boroda!

I apologize for the unfortunate incident where we mistakenly bombed yer dad's SAM site. We musta mistook it for a hospital.

Cheers!!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by NUKE
I didn't realise that Russia helped defend South Vietnam from the invading North.

Thanks for all the help.

NP.

Just check when bloody Vienamese commies started bombing the US. And when bloody Soviets started to ship SAMs to them so they could shoot down peacefull American planes that flew around for sightseeing.

Hangtime, it was my Uncle, not Father. At that time my Father was building bomb-shelters in USSR. Cheers!

[Gixer]

Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, but Gixer has some secret source that says 2 million civilians were killed by the US, so whatever you say is not true.

It's not a secret source that was the figure released by the Vietnamese (don't you think they would know better then anyone who was left after the war?) after the war and that historians refer to when commenting on civilans killed. I doubt the US would release official figures on civilian deaths during the Vietnam War or even acknowledge them any more then they will for the civilians killed in Iraq for obvious reasons. So the discussion with you is pointless since you only believe in American sources for information which is an irony in itself.

I never said the US killed 2 million civilians, I said 2 million civilians died during the Vietnam war though I didn't specify North Vietnam. Though it's obvious that if 2 million civilians are recorded to have died in North Vietnam and your doing all the bombing that a high proportion of those are going to be from US action. So I suggest you open your mind for a second and think about it.  

To help you with this process, didn't the US Military during the war estimate that for every 10,000 rounds or what ever the number was they killed one VC, so for every 10,000 pounds of bombs dropped on North Vietnam how many Civilians do you think you might possibly of been killed? None?

Then of course we have the millions that were made refugees.
 
Another point was the number of people killed and still being killed/maimed by unexploded ordanance all over Vietnam, cluster bombs and land mines  being a major problem, yet the US Govt has hardly done anything to assist in this clean up.  Other then the odd assistance by some veteran groups to go over at their own expense and help out.

Which made it all too Ironic when someone tried to claim the moral high ground by saying that the VC killed and hacked the limbs off children.

Obviously all of this isn't a good look for the leader of the free world and democracy so understandable you choose to believe what ever you like. But history records it the way it was irrelevent to who did what.


...-Gixer

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Gixer
I never said the US killed 2 million civilians, I said 2 million civilians died during the Vietnam war though I didn't specify North Vietnam.

Really?

Originally posted by Gixer
Habu you make me laugh,

The US replied with some 15.4 million tons of bombs,shells and mines (more then dropped in WW2) and killed some 2 million civilians.

You go right ahead and believe the figures Vietnam gives now fo rthe number killed. Since you insist on saying that I only beleive American sources for some reason, I am going to state that you will only believe in Communist sources for your information about the outside world. And my accusation seems more valid with each new post authored by you, Gixer.

And the refugees? You know that the US stopped fighting in VN in 1973 under agreement with the North? Congress then pulled almost all funding to the South by 1975. In 1975, the North INVADED the south and took over the country, This is when the refugees started flooding out of South Vietnam in order to escape.

The communists then made probably millions dissappear. Maybe they use the people they killed themselves in the civilian death counts for all you know.

You really are a treat Gixer.

[straffo]

Seriously I don't see what source can be seen as credible.

One lack credibility because of propaganda suspection

The other lack credibility because I don't see  how it can have accurate data.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by straffo
Seriously I don't see what source can be seen as credible.

One lack credibility because of propaganda suspection

The other lack credibility because I don't see  how it can have accurate data.

exactly.