Author Topic: Northern empire-theoretical discuss (Read 3279 times)

humble · « **Reply #90 on:** May 06, 2005, 05:26:18 PM »

Totally wrong...

The key to destroying Japanese transports was radio decoding. US knew in advance when a Japanese convoy would sail. This was more than anything else what doomed their supply of Guadalcanal. Not to mention the scant air cover they had for these convoys

Totally wrong...

Germans in cross channel operation would have substantial air cover & much shorter distance to cross

Totally wrong...

unlike Japanese on Guadalcanal, germans could launch paratroop landings on southern airfields

So in sumary....

Totally wrong....

humble · « **Reply #91 on:** May 06, 2005, 05:34:40 PM »

I could mention the exeptionally dumb comparison Humble makes between Guadalcanal & the English channel or his obviously ignorant understanding of Germany's ability to make hardware, explained below, but it isn't neccessary, it's obvious. But then who's insulting?

Please explain how my comparison is "dumb". Guadalcanal is the 1st major seaborn assualt of the war. Further it involves a proactive navy on both attack and defense. Further the defender has the edge in both sea and airpower as well as superior naval units but was unable to maintain supply routes inspite of impressive naval victories.

Further "what English channel"....your not coming across the snowy cliffs of dover....your coming down the north sea...big big difference.

What german hardware? The Japanese had the largest surface navy in the world after the british I believe. Yet they still couldnt force the issue....it wouldnt matter what the germans built it simply wouldnt have mattered. We'll rename agent .009......

Karnak · « **Reply #92 on:** May 06, 2005, 07:01:02 PM »

There is also a very large difference between invading Guadalcanal and a major industialized country. Guadalcanal was a far flung outpost of the Japanese Empire, not the Japanese homeland itself.

Drop paratroopers on the Southern Airfields

I'd like to see you volunteer to be in one of those Ju52s heading into the teeth of RAF Fighter Command. Talk about a slaughter.

humble · « **Reply #93 on:** May 06, 2005, 09:28:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
There is also a very large difference between invading Guadalcanal and a major industialized country. Guadalcanal was a far flung outpost of the Japanese Empire, not the Japanese homeland itself.

Drop paratroopers on the Southern Airfields

I'd like to see you volunteer to be in one of those Ju52s heading into the teeth of RAF Fighter Command. Talk about a slaughter.

Exacxtly,

It's a much simpler scenario, here we have one of the best navies in the world and its unable to defend and resupply its army on the canal...meanwhile the allies have equal problems which detract from ther abilities as well....

England would not only have a much greater air & navel presence while the Germans are much less capable then the japanese...but they have none of the logistical problems the marines had. BTW 009 Iam curious about 1 thing...how many divisions did you envision during the initial invasion of England?

agent 009 · « **Reply #94 on:** May 07, 2005, 12:16:38 AM »

The book No bended knee - the battle of guadalcanal by Gen Merrill Twining mentions "exactly" what I said. I supppose you think you are more intelligent than him eh Humble? Not only are you completely wrong-again, but stupendously arrogant as well.

Karnak, yes it was an industrial nation vs an island, which makes Humbles comparison rather silly. JU 52's? well what was the highest percentage a bomber stream ever lost over Europe? 15-20%? certainly not higher than 30-40%. So the RAF & ack ack is gonna get em all eh? absurd.

The US did use craft similiar in size to the German marinefahrprahm which is how they did much of their resupply. & the Japanese capital ships had little success against these. they are small targets & hard to hit. So the Royal navy is gonna sink em all eh? utterly stupid.

Besides, comparing fat slow Japanese mauru's to small armored maneuverable German Mfp's speaks for itself. Dumb as it gets.

thrila · « **Reply #95 on:** May 07, 2005, 04:08:39 AM »

Agent you still haven't thought about it logistically, it was logistically impossible for the Germans to have taken England.

agent 009 · « **Reply #96 on:** May 07, 2005, 04:19:48 AM »

Speculative opinion, nothing more. One can argue it in circles indefinitely. The French army was considered best in world in 40. had more tanks than Germans. The numbers are not as important as the tactics. I don't suppose anyone gave the Vietnamese much of a chance against the technologically superior French & US.

Did find this regarding German supply craft circa 43. Not exactly defenseless craft like the hastily gathered barges were.

On the afternoon of February 23, another six-plane sweep set out. Near Cape Bon, it spotted seven Siebel ferries and six German motor torpedo boats en route from Marsala to Tunis. (The Americans thought all 13 craft were Siebels.) The attackers met terrific flak. The entire lead element of three B-25s was shot down. The lead crew managed to ditch. Lashing their two rafts together, they floated around until an Italian seaplane saved them the next day. The 310th Group claimed five ferries sunk and two damaged; in reality, two Siebels went down.

thrila · « **Reply #97 on:** May 07, 2005, 04:54:37 AM »

You haven't thought it out rationally agent.

How are the paratroopers going to be supplied with ammunition? how are the tanks going to be supplied with fuel? Germany wont have any ships for the supplying. The ju52 is not similar to Germany's medium bombers. They lack protective armour, are slow and had a poor defensive armament. Your comparision is not valid. The ju52's were very vulnerable in the med, they would have suffered the same over Britain. Heaven forbid if the Ju52's had troops instead of fuel/ammunition. The loss of life would have been immense.

The ground in the south of England isn't the same as the low countries. the panzers wont be making long sweeping manouvers over flat ground. It would be much more similar to the hedge fighting in the bocage of Normandy.

How do you think Germany could have supplied it's troops and tanks, agent?

agent 009 · « **Reply #98 on:** May 07, 2005, 05:10:07 AM »

Covering ground in southern England is valid point.

Fuel & supply;
Tanks are topped off before embarking. One MFP can carry 140 tons of equipmeny-or fuel. Paratroopers carry ammo with them, enough to create havoc with planes on ground, grenades, machine guns etc. In north Africa aircraft carried drums of fuel to troops. Not to mention flying boats Germany had. These could land near beaches unload, repeat. Gliders carry men "and" equipment. Troops on ground are supplied by airdrop as they always are.
There's no doubt many JU's would be lost as they were over Crete. But the question becomes are they worth losing to secure victory?
many would be repaired & returned to service if invasion successful. Same question applied to Norway. Germany lost it's destroyers, but it was worth it.

It's not as black & white an issue as some would like to paint it.

thrila · « **Reply #99 on:** May 07, 2005, 05:32:54 AM »

Agent you are still glossing over the logisticis, which is the most critical element for a successful invasion.

You are ignoring the very real problems Germany would have faced. Your paratroop drops are as ludicrous as suggesting the allies to do a troop drop on enemy airfields across the rhine in '44.

You are seriously suggesting the paratroops will be ok because they'll carry enough ammo. It'll last for a couple of days at the most. You just ignored the fact that the ju52's will be decimated by the RAF on the crossing, just as you seem to have ignored the Royal Navy.

You suggest aircraft dropping fuel drums to troops is not a solution, it's an ineffective improvisation. With aircraft dropping fuel what will be escorting the Ju52's that would have suffered heavy casualties regardless? What will be covering the German fleet? Supplying troops by air drops? how? it's over contested air space, which now you have German planes carrying fuel drums now anyway.

Your invasion plans have no basis in reality and it's feasibility is nil.

Ghosth · « **Reply #100 on:** May 07, 2005, 07:19:48 AM »

" A bridge too Far"

Classic example of unsupported paratroop drops. And that was a LIGHTLY defended target btw.

Put troops into England and farmers will have sniped half of them before Tea Time.

The rest won't make it through the first night.

The only feasable way for Hitler to have taken England was to have continued hitting the RAF. Once the LW have total air supperiority, the bombers come in and start hitting the Aircraft & tank factorys. It would not have been easy, it would NOT have been fast, and he could NOT have started a second front while doing so. But it is within the realm of possibility if he had continued to make it his primary objective.

Granted, the English were short on heavy equipment, they left most of it at Dunkirk.

But on the flip side there is no prractical way for the germans to get panzers to england. Ohhh a few perhaps in those converted dutch barges. That is if they didn't all sink, take a bomb, shell, etc hit before hitting the shore.

Even then, its not the same as an LST that beaches itself, then has a nice ramp for tanks to roll ashore on.

Furball · « **Reply #101 on:** May 07, 2005, 07:30:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ghosth

The only feasable way for Hitler to have taken England was to have continued hitting the RAF. Once the LW have total air supperiority, the bombers come in and start hitting the Aircraft & tank factorys. It would not have been easy, it would NOT have been fast, and he could NOT have started a second front while doing so. But it is within the realm of possibility if he had continued to make it his primary objective.

Yup, only chance would have been to destroy the RAF, lure the RN out and into hitting range of the LW, sink it, then maybe try to take a major port with paratroops for shipping in supplies.

Doubt it would have worked but that seems the only way it could work.

agent 009 · « **Reply #102 on:** May 07, 2005, 08:24:30 AM »

Nope, thrila paratroops would be mostly captured & released after invasion. Their purpose -as you mentioned, a couple of days, is to temporarily disrupt air activities of the British, enough time to establish a beachhead.

& I covered 52 topic already. Raf could not get em all, not even near all. No fighter force ever got near all of a bomber stream in any theater.

& for the newbies, read the Mfp transport data. That is how it would be done. Not with barges.

thrila · « **Reply #103 on:** May 07, 2005, 09:12:00 AM »

Agent the Ju52 isn't a bomber, it isn't even comparable. The troops wont make it to any airfields, they'll be dead. You are talking about an unarmoured, under gunned plane cruising less than 150mph crossing a large distance. It will require shifts of escorts as the 109 will run out of fuel before the Ju52 gets to the airfields- effectively slashing their escort in the very least of a half. In fact the Ju52 would to fly unescorted as they approached their targets, the 109s struggled operating over London, they could not oprate realistically any northward. The Ju52 took horrendous losses whenever they operated without air supremacy- it happened at stalingrad, it happened in the med, it would have happened over britain.

I'm amazed you still think the mfp will make it ashore, they'll be decimated by the Royal Navy. Do you honestly think the German navy could stand toe to toe against the Royal Navy in holding or even establishing a beachhead? You talk of German destroyers and small craft, do you know how many the Royal Navy had? The German navy had to operate in a guerilla style in ww2 otherwise it would have been annhilated.

Westy · « **Reply #104 on:** May 07, 2005, 09:18:59 AM »

"it's not as black & white an issue as some would like to paint it."

Damn right! It's the only thing you've hit the nail on the head with.

If they'd just put on the rose colored Von Polyana glasses you're wearing then they'd see things in das proper light!

lol. You've got the answer and you're simply working backwards on evetns to support it by any means you can think of - mainly via ludicrous, shallowly worked out assumptions and fantasy.

Hence my prior posts have all been right on the mark.

Siek Helpp!