Author Topic: Northern empire-theoretical discuss  (Read 3280 times)

Offline humble

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Northern empire-theoretical discuss
« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2005, 09:58:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
The book No bended knee - the battle of guadalcanal by Gen Merrill Twining mentions "exactly" what I said. I supppose you think you are more intelligent than him eh Humble?  Not only are you completely wrong-again, but stupendously arrogant as well.

Karnak, yes it was an industrial nation vs an island, which makes Humbles comparison rather silly. JU 52's? well what was the highest percentage a bomber stream ever lost over Europe? 15-20%? certainly not higher than 30-40%. So the RAF & ack ack is gonna get em all eh? absurd.


The US did use craft similiar in size to the German marinefahrprahm which is how they did much of their resupply. & the Japanese capital ships had little success against these. they are small targets & hard to hit. So the Royal navy is gonna sink em all eh? utterly stupid.

Besides, comparing fat slow Japanese mauru's to small armored maneuverable German Mfp's speaks for itself. Dumb as it gets.


LOL....

Mentions "exactly" what.....

So the US Navy was made unaware of japanese communications regarding the movement of Japanese capital ships which led to the defeats of Savo island etcetra....but the aircorps was clued into the exact movements of supply convoys...which of course were controlled directly from Japan using the highest priority codes.

Yes the Allies had significant ability to break codes on all fronts...however not much tactical information was obtained that way. The best example of radio interception is Midway...yes we knew they were coming...but we had no current operational information.

I'm not arrogant at all.....just locked into a non arguement with a 5th or 6th grader who cant rise to the situation at hand. You simply do not have a clue what your talking about...

As for Guadalcanal vs England, your arguing it would be easier for Germany to invade england then for Japan to defend and resupply Guadalcanal?

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Offline humble

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« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2005, 10:13:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
Agent you still haven't thought about it logistically, it was logistically impossible for the Germans to have taken England.


Your arguing with an idiot....

1st)

No seaborne invasion has ever been attempted without control of both the sea and air at the invasion site. The Germans didn't have the aviation assets or naval assets to accomplish this...period.

2nd)

An invasion beachhead is most vulnerable during its initial 48 hours. During this critical phase the attacker needs to maintain both an aircap and provide seaborne "artillery"....again the germans didnt have the ability to do either.

3rd)

Sustained combat requires tremendous resources and the germans simply didnt have the logistical capability to deliver the required men and material.

4th)

There is no military gain from deploying airborne troops in england...again this is so much dribble. The allies deployed such forces due to the specific scenario at hand. Unless you have a tactical reason to due so your simply wasting assets...

Now of course the fact that someone thinks a bunch of transport planes would actually survive the trip speaks volumes...

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Offline agent 009

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« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2005, 01:42:53 PM »
...however not much tactical information was obtained that way. The best example of radio interception is Midway...yes we knew they were coming...but we had no current operational information

Read the book, loads of tactical data was obtained. particularly regarding supply convoys.

Nothing to be gained by paratroop drops? your getting dumber with each post. No mfp's or 52's would get through, well I've explained that no fighter force in history ever shot down a majority of any bomber stream. humble lives in fanstasyland.  No seaborne invasion was ever attempted without having control of sea & air at invasion site. Wrong again. US had complete control of neither at Guadalcanal. In the early stages the US lost more ships than the Japanese. The only airfield on the island was in Japanese hands. When the germans invaded Crete, twas the Brits who controlled the sea. Which proves you don't know what yer talkin bout. Arguing with mental midgets is boring. I'll leave you to it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 02:25:41 PM by agent 009 »

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #108 on: May 07, 2005, 05:34:14 PM »
JU52s are not bombers though agent

have you either seen a Ju52? its like a tin can

it wont work. EVERYONE has chipped in offering reasons that you seem to ignore.

of coarse you will probably see this as an insult, which it isnt but this threads subject is the least thought out.

the other thread about gibralter/malta etc kinda made sence and was probably something they could have done.... however that leads me to another point, which im sure ive seen in this thread too

Malta wasnt taken during WWII, yet it was a small island, with very little in troop defence, very little air defence, and few ships in defence too.

Italy and german had more chance in taking malta than taking England, but they didnt....Italy could have provided the ships, Germany the airforce.... but they didnt make it happen....and thats to a small little island with a VERY LONG supply line.

Englands defence was like 1000 times stronger......

oh and you mention crete. Crete was 100% airbourne invasion wasnt it???? with very little or no aircover, ie germany had 100% air control during the invasion. Oh and crete is a small island with very little in reserve, unlike Mainland England.....

id say and Ju52 drop on  mainland england, you'd loose 40-50% due to fighters, and 40-50% of those people that managed to drop due to fire from the ground. That leaves very little to capture dover (as in germanys plans) and the airfields.... Having lost all those Ju52s, what is going to run supplys to the now captured airfields?

A army doesnt run without supplys. Thats partly why Germanys war vs the French had a bit of a "break" after they encircled us... Because the panzers had got so far ahead that the supplys couldnt keep up. Same with America/UK/Can vs Germany later.... all there supplys coming off the tempory ports at normandy couldnt keep up with the offencive now reaching antwerp... And Antwerp wasnt really useable still. Thats why the war "slowed" down before xmas 1944, and thats why Hitlers Bulge nearly worked......ooh that sounded rude ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 05:45:07 PM by Overlag »
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2005, 05:52:57 PM »
http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2%20europe/ww2%20europe%20pages/ww2%20europe%20map%2018.htm

there ya go... BOTH seabourne invasions to crete FAILED

cant you logicaly see that the same would have happend to the ones going to the UK?

same with the Ju52s.... With englands defence they would have been mince meat
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2005, 09:32:43 PM »
Using Guadicanal as an example of how britain might be invaded successfully?
One is a remote, undefeded nearly deserted island. The other is the most densly populated and industrialised nation on earth at the time. One had almost no local population that cared either way. The British population were millions strong and cared a great deal.

One had an extensive radar system the other didnt, one was one of the greatest naval powers the other wasnt .

The british army, fully intact and prepared for a long telegraphed german invasion and without having split its strength to france would be a little different then 200 japanese construction engineers.

Ju52s flying over the north sea all the way from Germany to England. Loaded with paratroopers. Almost un escorted. Each with at most one manually aimed 7.92mm  mount.

Agent says that no bomber stream in history ever took near 100 % casualties.

Ever heard of the palm sunday massacre agent?
100 Ju5s go out. 40 come back. One mission. That doesnt indicate how many troops in those planes would have been killed. And that was with 109s as escort.

009 will say that 60% isnt 100 %. And that the Germans could effectivly deliver  the falshimjaegers even if 60% of them died. Amazing.

Gemanys mystery LSTs arent mentioned in Janes WW2 book or in Conways. Interesting.

Offline humble

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« Reply #111 on: May 07, 2005, 11:41:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
...however not much tactical information was obtained that way. The best example of radio interception is Midway...yes we knew they were coming...but we had no current operational information

Read the book, loads of tactical data was obtained. particularly regarding supply convoys.

Nothing to be gained by paratroop drops? your getting dumber with each post. No mfp's or 52's would get through, well I've explained that no fighter force in history ever shot down a majority of any bomber stream. humble lives in fanstasyland.  No seaborne invasion was ever attempted without having control of sea & air at invasion site. Wrong again. US had complete control of neither at Guadalcanal. In the early stages the US lost more ships than the Japanese. The only airfield on the island was in Japanese hands. When the germans invaded Crete, twas the Brits who controlled the sea. Which proves you don't know what yer talkin bout. Arguing with mental midgets is boring. I'll leave you to it.


Wrong again numnutes....

Please provide me with the name of anyJapanese warship which was on hand to oppose the actual landings. The battle of Savo Island occured on August 9, 1942...the initial landings were unopposed by any japanese naval force.

Please provide me with any operational aviation asset located on Guadalcanal as of August 7, 1942. The airfield was not operational at the time of the invasion.

As for paratroop drops...I didnt say they had no value...simply that your use had no value and was a waste of valuable assets for no gain. Realistically you'd have 80%+ loses at best....but even if you got them on the ground you have no ability to capitalize on any success they have.

If youwant to see a mental midgit...just go look in the mirror....just bring a high stool...I'm sure its a long way up son:).

BTW you havent explained anything...you just repeat absurd statements with no factual basis in reality. To you even know how many tons of supplies (and men) are required to maintain seven divisions engaged in sustained combat for 3 days?

Just the petrol requirements alone are beyond german capability

Or do you think a couple of battalions of paratroopers are going to roll england up:)....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2005, 11:45:04 PM »
Japanese reaction to the Guadalcanal-Tulagi invasion was swift, if not initially very effective. At Rabaul, the principal Japanese base in the area, the local fleet commander, Vice Admiral Gunichi Mikawa, pulled together some ground troops, put them in six transports and ordered them off toward Guadalcanal, about six hundred miles to the southeastward. However, during the night of 8 August one of the transports had the ill-fortune to pass near the old U.S. submarine S-38, which sank her with over three hundred men. This forced the cancellation of this first of what would be many Japanese efforts to reinforce their embattled troops on Guadalcanal.

Meanwhile, Japanese planes from Rabaul were sent off to attack the invaders, or preferably their supporting aircraft carriers. In the early afternoon of 7 August, some 27 twin-engine bombers (of a type soon to be nicknamed "Betty") and 18 deadly "Zero" fighters, not having found the carriers, arrived over the invasion fleet. Making a high-level bombing attack, they achieved no hits and lost five bombers and two fighters in actions with U.S. carrier planes (of which the "Zeros" shot down several F4F-4 "Wildcat" fighters and one SBD scout bomber). A few hours later nine single-engine Japanese dive bombers (type "Val") appeared and scored a non-fatal hit on the destroyer Mugford. All of these attackers were lost, either shot down or ditched on the way home.

The Japanese tried again the next day, this time with 27 "Betty" bombers fitted with aerial torpedos and an escort of 15 "Zeros". Once more, they failed to locate the U.S. aircraft carriers, but made a daring low-level torpedo attack on the Vice Admiral Turner's amphibious force. Turner skillfully maneuvered his ships in the sound between Guadalcanal and Tulagi, throwing off the enemy's aim. Only one torpedo scored, hitting destroyer Jarvis in the bow. The transport George F. Elliot was struck amidships by a crashing bomber and was set afire. Japanese losses were very heavy, about seventeen bombers and two fighters, the great majority to the ship's anti-aircraft guns.

The damage done by these Japanese air attacks only inconvenienced the invasion force, slowing supply off-loading by a few hours and taking three ships out of the fight. George F. Elliot was a total loss, her fires burned out of control and she had to be scuttled. Jarvis and Mugford were both able to steam away to seek repairs, but the former, sailing independently, was found by enemy planes on the 9th of August and sunk with no survivors.

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Offline Pooh21

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Northern empire-theoretical discuss
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2005, 12:56:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Hey lovepotion009.
"Our generals are just a bunch of contemptable  disloyal cowards!

They will pay with thier own blood for thier weakness!"


It feels like the bunker in here. And we are all the generals looking embarased as 009 froths at the mouth.



classic!

now we need to get back to the flying monkeys that hitlers blowing out of his tookus. England wouldnt stand a chance against them.

fly! fly! fly!
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2005, 01:30:00 AM »
Invasion of Crete was done with slow tranport ships, nothing at all in common with Mfp's.  Convoys are easy to spot, mfp's would operate singly & run zig zag patterns if need be. Totally different situation. English channel also different from Med. Again, channel crossing be done at night with fog as cover. wait for bad weather, especially fog, no way Brit navy could find most of em.

As for Ju's noone has yet answered the question of percentages of bomber streams or the fact that these were successful over Crete. Sorry no real intelligent arguments have been made regarding how many could-would make it across. If you read, you would see above that I agreed many would be lost.

Humble your post only reinforces the fact that US did not have complete air superiority. You disproved your own argument. Your insults even suck, numnutes? Learn to spell. Pack it in mate it's embarrassing.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 02:28:35 AM by agent 009 »

Offline thrila

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« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2005, 04:57:49 AM »
Now you are proposing to send the mfps zigzaging in poor, foggy weather?  Can you not see the insanity in what you are suggesting?  If you suggested such a thing to any navy you would be laughed at.    How are the ships supposed to find their targets?  what about collisions?  How  will the troops be concentrated when the ships are landing in penny packets in random places.

You are still comparing the ju52 to a bomber, which it is not.   It doesn't have any protective armour or a heavy armament- a single 7.9mm mg and they wont be flying between 20 and 25k.  Your comparison of a fleet of ju52s to a bomber stream is unfounded.  With this poor, foggy weather how are the ju52's supposed to find their targets? Are they just going to dump their troops where ever?  Of course that'll be the 10% that doesn't just massacred by the RAF. You are back peddling to such a degree you are removing conditions critical for success in one area of the operation to suit another.  Your plan is  incoherent.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 07:50:33 AM by thrila »
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Offline lada

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Re: Northern empire-theoretical discuss
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2005, 05:27:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Germany 1st takes Austria, Czechlosovakia, Denmark, part of Poland to connect Prussia with Germany, Then Baltic states, & Scandinavia,  & finally England. & calls it the northern empire.

No eastern front, no battle of France, no North African front.

Can they hold it? will US & Canada intervene?


Can speak for others. But in czech we had pretty good nest of fortress all around.
It hasnt been totaly finished, but most of it were ready to use.

Many czech were angry that we didnt fight, coz when they saw, what came to prague, it were clear thet we could resist for several months on our own.


However we better speak about alliance whitch has been set-up after WW1 and broke in Munich by British.

How could war develop if it started in 36 or 38 ?

Offline humble

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« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2005, 09:55:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Invasion of Crete was done with slow tranport ships, nothing at all in common with Mfp's.  Convoys are easy to spot, mfp's would operate singly & run zig zag patterns if need be. Totally different situation. English channel also different from Med. Again, channel crossing be done at night with fog as cover. wait for bad weather, especially fog, no way Brit navy could find most of em.

As for Ju's noone has yet answered the question of percentages of bomber streams or the fact that these were successful over Crete. Sorry no real intelligent arguments have been made regarding how many could-would make it across. If you read, you would see above that I agreed many would be lost.

Humble your post only reinforces the fact that US did not have complete air superiority. You disproved your own argument. Your insults even suck, numnutes? Learn to spell. Pack it in mate it's embarrassing.


Sounds like they had air superiority to me...far far better than you would have over England. See this is typical anywhere here on these threads with people like you. Facts are never totally one sided. But people like you ignore 98% and magnify the other 2%.

We established that the airfield on Guadalcanal was non operational. We established that Japan provided no direct opposition to the landing itself. Now japan did mount a two airborne counter attacks totaling 54 planes which were ineffective. Not a single troop or landing craft was touched and only one escort damaged.

Further we now have reduced your "invasion" of England to a bunch of paratroopers and some Mfp's zigzaging thru the fog banks....you use the "english channel" again here....your coming across the north sea from Norway you twit. The person who hasnt provided an intelligent argument is you.

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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2005, 10:10:23 AM »
it could have been done, just not the way agent sees...
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Offline agent 009

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« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2005, 03:05:28 PM »
Um no, Norway was but one of the things discussed you twit, if you'd read you'd see that the normal invasion through france was also discussed you twit. Yes I know the airfield was under construction on Guadalcanal, but it still has no relevant comparison to the Channel you twit.