Northern empire-theoretical discuss

[agent 009]

Lute, you have provided exactly no original ideas yet, who are U to talk?

As for bob being impossible, The experts  often say that before campaigns that ended up succeeding. Rommel had 2 divisions against 7 Brit. Conventional wisdom would dictate he fails right from the start. But conventional wisdom is often wrong.

Overlag, US was supplying Brits in N Africa in 41 with military hardware through red cross ships. Don't know what capacity Canada played in 40-41.

found a westy photo here. crossdressing stories - sissy maids  not exactly yer best side.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by agent 009

Overlag, US was supplying Brits in N Africa in 41 with military hardware through red cross ships.
 

where did you pick up that bull****?

much like the germans in WWI sinking the Britannic because it had supplys onboard? it was a DAM HOSPITAL SHIP FFS and a dam good White star line ship......unsinkable my a*** prove would be nice

and why do you say that? i didnt talk about N Africa? I mearly said if the UK mainland had fallen, then its control in Africa would have probably been "given up" like French N-Africa...although saying that, brits do have backbone unlike the french

[Pongo]

Hey lovepotion009.
"Our generals are just a bunch of contemptable  disloyal cowards!

They will pay with thier own blood for thier weakness!"


It feels like the bunker in here. And we are all the generals looking embarased as 009 froths at the mouth.

[agent 009]

A German raider stopped a US red cross ship in Indian ocean & found aircraft parts & other assorted hadware. From a book about the raider, the captains account. Not bs.

[Ecliptik]

Originally posted by agent 009
Don't know what capacity Canada played in 40-41.

Australia and New Zealand declared war on Germany simultaneously with Britain on September 3, 1939.  Canada officially declared war one week later, on September 10.  Reserve troops and equipment from all over the Commonwealth abroad were sailing for England in 1940.  Canadian pilots participated significantly in the BoB, and Canada was a major manufacturing base for British aircraft starting in 1940, with supplies being shipped out of Halifax on British and Canadian (and some American) merchant ships escorted by light warships from all the Commonwealth navies.

[Karnak]

Overlag,

What makes you think the Royal Navy would not have had aircover?

It absolutely would have had aircover.  There was no way the Luftwaffe could eliminate the RAF as the RAF would have simply withdrawn its remaining  fighters north and held them in reserve to cover the fleet when it sailed against the invasion force.  That was the plan.

Also look at the Japanese pilot's skill compared to the Luftwaffe, particularly in anti-shipping actions.  The Japanese were far, far better at that due to their overly rigorous training.

As a comparison look at how ineffectual the Luftwaffe was during the Dunkirk evacuations.  They only got a handful of destroyers, much softer targets than battleships, during the 10 days of the evacuation.  The Royal Navy would need less than a day to utterly destroy the German invasion force.

If the Germans had tried it they would have suffered 50%-100% loss of Wehrmacht forces commited and a chunk of the Luftwaffe.  The British would have lost some of the Royal Navy and a large chunk of the remaining strength in RAF Fighter Command.


There was no chance for the invasion to work.

[Pongo]

009 has recognized that an invasion of england as a primary war aim for the germans would have involved commiting to that strategy in 1933 or so. I think we can all agree with that.
The german naval build stratagy as it was turned out to be a failure. They built ships of the line that each would have been 50-100 subs in man power and cost   then threw the supporting ships necessary to make those ships effective away in norway.
The whole build a battle line idea is flawed in hindsight.

But specializing the german armed forces for the purposes of invading england would be clear from the begining. Who else does germany need 120 LSTs for? Telegraphing your intention and commiting your treasury and industry to accomplishing it makes for a VERY different german armed forces in 1939. And england gets several years to make it even less probable to work.

I doubt that a germany that had commited itself to be able to invade england would be able to wage blitzkrieg. The resources to invade would have eaten up all the resources to build panzer divisions and stuka wings.

Think about it though. Germany didnt have the means to take Malta! defended by 1 squadron of fighters and manned with less then a division of troops! With germany able to establish absolute air supperiority over the objective.

[agent 009]

It is interesting that the Luftwaffe only got a few destroyers at Dunkirk. It begs the question, how many ships would the RAF got in a cross channel invasion by Germans, & how many ships would Germans need to get across for it to be a success?

One good transport ship could carry 50 panzers. Brit navy would no doubt sink many, but not all.

For that matter, how sophisticated was aerial ship bombing in 1940? skip bombing had not been developed yet. The techniques for sinking ships from the air went through much upgrade in subsequent yrs.

Yes Brit spies would be aware of German naval plan, but Chamberlain believed in appeasement or should I say diplomatic resolutions. So Brit reaction is hard to nail down with certitude.

  Raf is still a prob when germans land. Control of southern airfields would be key. Paratroops perhaps.

different thread, but interesting nonetheless.

[Charon]

It is interesting that the Luftwaffe only got a few destroyers at Dunkirk. It begs the question, how many ships would the RAF got in a cross channel invasion by Germans, & how many ships would Germans need to get across for it to be a success?

For that matter, how sophisticated was aerial ship bombing in 1940? skip bombing had not been developed yet. The techniques for sinking ships from the air went through much upgrade in subsequent yrs.

How many German battleships and battle cruisers were running through the withdrawal forces ripping it to shreds? There would have been plenty of RN capital ships, cruisers and destroyers in a target-rich environment.

Germany had no amphibious warfare doctrine. Didn't get to practice it in Spain, didn't plan on any invasions, didn't figure at all in the goals of the Third Reich. They had no specialized vessels, no Higgins boats, no LSTs, no Mulberry docks, no sophisticated fuel logistics (no pipeline on the channel bed to the coast) to keep the army moving once ashore, no means to get those 50 panzers off a transport ship and onto the beach without controlling a port, no naval superiority (not even in U-boats at this time), would have been opposed to some degree in the air (enough to disrupt Stukas attacking the RN certainly) and would be facing the full, unoccupied commonwealth forces in Britain.

There is a reason why the allies waited until 1944, took full advantage of massive numbers of specialized US produced support vessels, massive naval bombardment, a diluted german force with much on the Eastern front, hard earned amphibious doctrine from the Pacific and overwhelming air superiority. Nobody could have pulled of a similar invasion in 1939 because the scope of the undertaking was too massive compared to the defense required to resist. The amount of mental gymnastics required to make this successful borders on the realm of science fiction (not alternative history). The channel was a *****. Logistics is a *****. Pile up enough dirt to fill in the English Channel and maybe it becomes a different story

Charon

[Karnak]

Originally posted by agent 009
It is interesting that the Luftwaffe only got a few destroyers at Dunkirk. It begs the question, how many ships would the RAF got in a cross channel invasion by Germans, & how many ships would Germans need to get across for it to be a success?

One good transport ship could carry 50 panzers. Brit navy would no doubt sink many, but not all.

The RAF would not sink very many, if any at all.  

Then again the RAF's job would be to protect the RN while the RN absolutely slaughtered the German transports.

The RN would likely sink all of them, or so many as to make no substantive difference from sinking all of them.  I think you are greatly underestimating the trauma that battleships and battlecruisers can inflict to transports at point blank range.

[Charon]

009 has recognized that an invasion of england as a primary war aim for the germans would have involved commiting to that strategy in 1933 or so. I think we can all agree with that.

Of course, then you have to ignore the Great Depression. If you do that Hitler fails to get a lot of the moderate/conservative middle calss vote and doesn't rise to power. If you take it back into the 1920s you have to ignore the initial recovery period from World War I. If you Ignore WWI, then hitler doesn't rise to power and maybe WWI happens under the next Kaiser in 1939. But then none of the lessons learned from WWI come into play so you have horse cavalry, the limited use of less developed aircraft and trench warfare in France again, unless the Kaiser decides to take it out on his cousins in England for some reason.

Charon

[Pongo]

Its the same thread.
The british had a dedicated arm for the attack of ships by aircraft. The Germans did not. Recognizing this after Norway and Dunquirk they trained up and did very well at malta.

The Germans did poorly at dunkirk partly because of the RAF being there in force. No aircraft the germans had would be covering an invasion beach from Germany.
So ALOT of german ships would be gone to the RAF, The beach head would be getting bomber commanded night and day.

And that is with no real threat of invasion. With a real threat, devloped over several years and telegraphed to the british the germans would be absolutely doomed.

The only invasion attempt that even approaches a german invasion of england is Normandy. With total naval and air supperiority against a tired and stretched enemy with the defenders cipher system totaly comprimised, and enemy air recce planes kept totaly out of the picture and only crossing 20 km of water.

[Pongo]

Charon, they started rebuilding the navy in 33 historically, its just a matter of having a focus on goon rushing england instead of having a real navy.

[Charon]

Charon, they started rebuilding the navy in 33 historically, its just a matter of having a focus on goon rushing england instead of having a real navy.

I was thinking along the lines of having some sort of combined fleet that could serve as at least a speedbump to the RN, in addition to a vastly expanded auxiliary fleet. I mean, just the auxiliaries sailing without any serious escort or shore bombardment capability... It just didn't occur to me that you would only build the auxiliaries (which you would have to do given the 1930s recovery period -- one or the other or not much of either).

The Germans did poorly at dunkirk partly because of the RAF being there in force. No aircraft the germans had would be covering an invasion beach from Germany.

That's really a good point, a deal breaker I believe even if they controlled Norway. There essentially is no BoB to wear down the RAF, range issues are magnified tremendously so you have lightly escorted (by 110s) or unescorted Ju-88s as your offensive striking power against the RN. Lightly or unescorted 111s etc to do some sort of interdiction. No navy to counter (only auxiliaries). Unpossible.

Charon

[Pongo]

yup..
yup..
hey its not my idea..I think its hilarios..