Author Topic: Separation of Church and State  (Read 2883 times)

Offline Raider179

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2005, 08:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr

Telling me I'm not bright enough is an interesting way to accuse me of not reading between the lines and seeing the permiutations that for you seem to be obvious and almost evil in your view of the possible out come...............


Only reason I said you werent bright enough is because it took about 4 posts of me saying the same thing before you finally were able to grasp what I was saying. Had nothing to do with reading, or maybe it did.

Offline Seagoon

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2005, 12:53:11 AM »
{My apologies for interrupting the stream to respond to Toad}

Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Sea, thanks a lot. I'll be checking it out. Scanned it when it came up before but not as much as I desired.

Tell me quick and dirty.... is being a Universalist a really, really bad thing?

We'll probably chat more in detail later.


Toad,

Let me put it to you simply, Universalism is a clear contradiction of the teaching of the Bible (and the the teaching of Christ) regarding Heaven and Hell, Redemption, Salvation, and Eternal Punishment.

In its modern permutations it is a new theology and only really took hold after enlightenment rationalism began to discourage a belief in the inspiration of scripture, and philosophers began to critique what they regarded as the "moral failings" of the bible (they also asserted that a superior morality could be deduced by unaided reason.)

Usually, in order for a denomination to embrace universalism, most of the other supernatural elements of the bible also have to be dispensed with and few if any denoms that believe in the Deity of Christ have embraced it. It is generally  considered about as heterodox a belief as is possible.

For a scholarly history and critique of modern universalism in particular check out: The Rise of Modern Universalism

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Toad

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2005, 08:08:42 AM »
Hmmmmmmmmmm... OK, stop right there and let me catch up. Maybe I misread something earlier and have a misunderstanding of what Universalism represents.

I have to educate myself.

Thanks for the link. TTYL.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2005, 08:16:06 AM »
Whew...OK, I'm NOT a Universalist.

More later.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2005, 08:24:15 AM »
nash said.. "When you get off your ridiculous obsession with "getting pinned", scoring points, and winning, and all the other BS, lemme know. "

oh come on nash... if Bush or one of the consevatives on this BB would have blown it as bad as you did you would have made a huge deal out of it.

I don't think the church should vote out members based opn poilitics but if they do... that is their right... probly not a smart thing to do tho.  lose folks that way I would imagine.

I think that nash is comfortable with democrats trying lamely to clap in time with gospel singers in all black holly roller churches or Republicans pretending to enjoy church services at mostlyu white churches...  I just think he is uncomfortable if he thinks that they may not be pretending.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2005, 09:52:30 AM »
I think it was one of those 'near-pins' like in the WWF where Seagoon had Nash down, but the ref (Toad?) was looking the other way for a second cause Raider was lifting up a folding chair then Nash did that arched back hump thing and bounced Seagoon off just when Toad was looking back....

I'm pretty sure thats what really happened.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2005, 09:57:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
The way the law stands they only discriminate against them if they try to spout religious views while they give the food....


That is not the way the policy is administered however.  

To use another example, In public schools a bible study group cannot get a spare classroom for a lunchtime meeting but a flyfishing club can.  No complusion to attend, no sponsorship above what any secular organization receives, yet the religious group is discriminated against on account of their religious belief.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Seagoon

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The correspondance between the Danbury Baptists and Jefferson
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2005, 11:15:07 AM »
Hi Guys,

It has been my experience that the majority of Americans have never read the actual letters that were exchanged between the Danbury Baptist Association and President Thomas Jefferson and that the only portion they are familiar with are the four words "separation of church and state" devoid of any of their original context (witness the title of this thread). Therefore, here are the original documents, along with some further context and perhaps a brief comment or two, which is perhaps necessary because as a culture we have become a good deal more unenlightened than the civilization we sprang from.

Regarding the DBA letter to Jefferson: The Danbury baptists are concerned that under the ancient British laws, the practice of religion was considered something circumscribed by the government (a position supported by the idea that the King was the head of the church) and therefore that the government had the right to enforce uniformity of religious belief and practice . Under the British system therefore, the rights of religious expression are alienable. They contend that they believe that these rights are God-given and thus inalienable and that no civil magistrate has the right to assume the governance of the Kingdom of God (this belief, that the spheres of the civil government and the church were separate and that each had power delegated by God, rather than absolutely joined and acting directly for God as the Anglicans and Roman Catholic had taught, was a fundamental tennet of Reformation Christianity and a principle that informed the framers of the Constitution).

Jefferson writes to assure them that this is his understanding as well, which is not surprising, as the Virginia declaration of rights which George Mason wrote for Jefferson's beloved Virginia and which Jefferson himself endorsed states:

"That Religion, or the duty which we owe to our CREATOR, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity, towards each other."

The letter of the DBA therefore is concerned more with fears that the government might once again conclude that the right of religious expression is a favor granted by the state, and not an inalienable right granted by God, and that the civil magistrate might seek to rule and judge concerning what men believe and say concerning religion, rather than simply judging their actions according to an equitable and impartial law.

[Please note also that Jefferson was not the author of the constitution, that was James Madison.]
 
Anyway here are the letters.

The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801.
To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America

Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association,

Neh,h Dodge }
Eph'm Robbins } The Committee
Stephen S. Nelson }

*A cite for this letter could read:

Letter of Oct. 7, 1801 from Danbury (CT) Baptist Assoc. to Thomas Jefferson,
Thomas Jefferson Papers, Manuscript Division,
Library of Congress, Wash. D.C.

Jefferson's Reply

Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, and Stephen s. Nelson
A Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut.

Washington, January 1, 1802

Gentlemen,--The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.


--------------------

One final thought:  the Danbury Baptists were partly concerned that the Government might usurp the perogative of God and seek to modify the laws and doctrines of the church by judging certain kinds of religious thought and speech to be unlawful. I have similar fears due to the increasing establishment of secular humanism as the religion of the state and the increasing tendency to judge certain kinds of teaching "unlawful hate speech" because incompatible with the presuppositions of the dominant religion of the day. Thus I fear that as in Canada, Christians might be in danger of being indicted, not for what they have done (for instance, if a Christian were to kill a homosexual) but for what they have preached (that homosexual sex is a sin).

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: May 10, 2005, 11:18:49 AM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Raider179

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #143 on: May 10, 2005, 12:57:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
That is not the way the policy is administered however.  

To use another example, In public schools a bible study group cannot get a spare classroom for a lunchtime meeting but a flyfishing club can.  No complusion to attend, no sponsorship above what any secular organization receives, yet the religious group is discriminated against on account of their religious belief.


Thats just not true. In another thread I posted various laws regarding these exact miconceptions. I believe it was in a debate with seagoon. I am sure there were extenuating circumstances which you are not including, link please.

Offline bustr

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2005, 01:06:57 PM »
Seagoon,

Are you not remiss in leaving out mention of Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the State of Virginia? It was eventually passed in 1785. Section 2 being the heart of how Jefferson felt about man's freedom to worship or not without repercussion or loss of freedom.

"SECTION II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

It seems in that time the burden of personal conduct was a thousand fold heavier than in our present time of secularistic burden releif. Don't you think?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline FUNKED1

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #145 on: May 10, 2005, 01:11:57 PM »
Quote
SECTION II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

That's great stuff.

Offline bustr

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #146 on: May 10, 2005, 02:10:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
LoL

You say I am reading between the lines but then you go read between the lines yourself. Does the constitution, actually the bill of rights, say it only prohibits creation of a "U.S. federal religion by passage of a "law" to create it?" Seems like that is reading between the lines on your part. IMO The clause is vauge on purpose so it could be wide-ranging. Not Narrow into only 1 specific act.


The language is very direct.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Please explain what is vauge about this exact statement? It is the only one in the constitution. Ten words........ It says congress shall not create a religion by act of law. Creating Law is Congress's primary power. This is not a head of a pin theological discussion the framers based the statement on...........it is a direct limitation of a Congressional Power. The power to create a religion is also the power to enslave the natural rights and freedom of mankind.

Unless there is something here I am not seeing, are you willing to write a detailed discource? Please explain how it is a wide ranging and vauge statement..........Or is your scholorship up to the task?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Raider179

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #147 on: May 10, 2005, 02:12:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr

"SECTION II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

 


My favorite part is "no man shall be compelled to frequent or SUPPORT any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever"

seems like prime anti-faith based initiative stuff to me.

Offline Raider179

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #148 on: May 10, 2005, 02:24:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
The language is very direct.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Please explain what is vauge about this exact statement? It is the only one in the constitution. Ten words........ It says congress shall not create a religion by act of law. Creating Law is Congress's primary power. This is not a head of a pin theological discussion the framers based the statement on...........it is a direct limitation of a Congressional Power. The power to create a religion is also the power to enslave the natural rights and freedom of mankind.

Unless there is something here I am not seeing, are you willing to write a detailed discource? Please explain how it is a wide ranging and vauge statement..........Or is your scholorship up to the task?


Ok lets look at this no law "respecting an establishment of religion"

I see you just jump right over respecting.

Respecting as I interpret it is the key word here. See they didnt just say Congress will make no law establishing religion. They said Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion.

Respecting as I interpret it here means concerning, regarding.

That includes anything that has to do with even the beginning stage of establishing such a "national" religion. Or do you think we can just give all our taxpayers money to the churches, let them run the country, why not even let them take turns being in charge of the country. By your definition all this would be perfectly acceptable as long as Congress doesn't pass a law saying Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism is the national religion.

To me they meant to head off anything like that from the start. And that is exactly how I see the faith-based initiative. The start of the establishment of national religion or religions.

By your own post above you can see Jefferson did not agree with paying churches money.


"no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever"

Support does mean financially.

Offline Seagoon

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #149 on: May 10, 2005, 02:26:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
Seagoon,

Are you not remiss in leaving out mention of Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the State of Virginia? It was eventually passed in 1785. Section 2 being the heart of how Jefferson felt about man's freedom to worship or not without repercussion or loss of freedom.

"SECTION II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

It seems in that time the burden of personal conduct was a thousand fold heavier than in our present time of secularistic burden releif. Don't you think?


Hi Bustr,

That too is a good resource, I should have included it. Regarding your point, all of the overarching statements of civil rights both state and federal framed in this period regarding religion were essentially designed to do two things:

1) Maintain the biblical principle that the Caesar's kingdom and God's were two different spheres and that the church had no right to govern the state and vice versa.

2) To reinforce the point that the magistrate had a duty to protect freedom of religion, hence the thrust of your quote from Jefferson above.

As several commentators have noted, Jefferson learned these principles not from the French philosophes of the time  - who were adamantly anti-Christian and who worked to evacuate all religion from the public square, but rather largely from Reformed Christians and in particular Presbyterians like Witherspoon. Note for instance the incredible similarity between Jefferson's statement above, and the following section from the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith:

"Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in matters of faith. Yet, as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance. " [Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 23, article 3]

You'll notice that all of the statements quoted from this period have a clause assuring that the right of freedom of religion shall be assured by the government, and that to quote Jefferson "all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

And yet we seem to have forgotten the portions of our foundational documents that protect the free exercise of religion. We see that in the way that we are told that judges, for instance, are disqualified from serving as judges because of (to quote Chuck Schumer) "deeply held conservative religious views." What better example do we have of a man's religious beliefs being held to "diminish his civil capacity?" We have gone from protecting freedom of religion to enforcing freedom from Christian religion.

In my opinion, we are societally well on the way to institutionalizing not Jefferson's ideals but Rousseau's dream of erradicating Christianity from culture in favor of  "a purely civil profession of faith, of which the Sovereign should fix the articles, not exactly as religious dogma, but as social sentiments without which a man cannot be a good citizen and faithful subject." [Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract]

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams