Author Topic: Enough Is Enough  (Read 4547 times)

Offline hitech

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Enough Is Enough
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2005, 09:36:01 AM »
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech

Offline Pooface

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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2005, 09:57:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech


very well said HT

oh, and killnu, my post wasnt trying to discount ure 'whine', it was saying that i dont want the lala perked because it is my main source of income. sorry, i guess i should of written it differently, no offence meant

Offline Loddar

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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2005, 10:07:27 AM »
:cool: SuperDud

As my suggest, bring in more La's like
LaGG or early La5's to confuse all those
Ladrivers.

Hitech please don't perk La7, 75% of
MArumblers wont know what to fly when
La7 is perked :p

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2005, 10:47:48 AM »
Quote
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.



 I agree with you on this HT.

 You mentioned "even more imbalance" - and by that I'm guessing this is what you're expecting:


Quote

La7 - 20%
Spit5 - 10%
190D - 8%
P51D - 8%
Typh - 8%

 If the La-7 is perked at a price that is considered to be too much of a risk compared to its rewards, then the La-7 usage will dwindle. It will be effectively 'removed' from the arena in it's entitiy, and it's usage will spread to the 'next in line' alternatives.:

La7 -  2% (-18)
Spit5 - 13% (+3)
190D - 16% (+8)
P51D - 13% (+5)
Typh - 10% (+2)



 If you perk one plane, and perk it heavy enough for people to stop using it totally, the imbalance will actually amplify among the 'next in line'.

 People will see fewer La-7s, but they are gonna start seeing even MORE of the 'same planes'. I believe this is what HT was talking about.

 ...


 Perking one plane is not the solution.

 The La-7 is but a symbol of arena imbalance - it is not what is causing imbalance by itself.

 Perking the entire late war fighters section at low, manageable prices of (3~4 points), is what is needed.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2005, 11:07:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

HiTech


And that 20K is not really an acurate representation of the number of lalas since it is used for base deffence.  Meaning, I may have 10 la7 sorties in 30 seconds without even leaving the runway.  The D9 numbers for example, do represent actual sorties.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2005, 11:09:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
a mixture of D9s, nikis, lala...heck even a spit, pony in there....anything other than a horde of lala's with one or two non lala's...thats all im asking for.

hope that answers your question dedalos.

either way its still a horde, just so sad to see so many great planes sit in hangar, planes that played bigger part in real life(and yes i know this a game) sit in the hangar.  oh well.

i still think 4th country should be added called LaLa.


Hey, I am with you on flying the other planes, but if I am in a C202 or P40, the last thing I want comming after me is a SpitV or NIKI.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2005, 11:15:50 AM »
So, Dora, G10, typh, ponyD? What do you define as late war? I think you'll have a real civil war on your hands if you perk the ponyD...

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2005, 11:16:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Hey, I am with you on flying the other planes, but if I am in a C202 or P40, the last thing I want comming after me is a SpitV or NIKI.


Actually, the C202 does well against SpitVs (at least when I've done it 1v1 it was a stalemate or I won) and I'd take it up against a n1k2 to try 'er out any time.

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2005, 11:30:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Actually, the C202 does well against SpitVs (at least when I've done it 1v1 it was a stalemate or I won) and I'd take it up against a n1k2 to try 'er out any time.


I've won a few but I attributed that to the pilot of the spit and not me or the plane :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2005, 01:57:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

Perking the entire late war fighters section at low, manageable prices of (3~4 points), is what is needed.


(I am disagreeing with you twice in one day, that is rare)

Think about the concequences of what you are asking. The new player who has 0 perks will not be able to fly any of the fast late war planes. Unless they are experienced pilots they will die a lot! This will create much more frustration to an already difficult and frustrating game to the new player. They are confidence builders. Granted, they may use them as a crutch and never learn the shear joy of the early war turners. It's the way things are.

Imaging the new player who logs on to AH for the 1st time and it real stoked to fly the P51D and he finds out he can't until he earns some perk points. Can you not hear the uterances of "Man, this game sucks!". One lost free trialer.

Not only this, now that you've perked the runners favorite planes what do you think they are going to do? You got it, run more. They will be even less inclined to engage for fear of losing those perkies. So now you've only made one problem worse. Now these guys will do nothing but vulch, cherry pick and run.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2005, 02:11:44 PM »
Quote
Think about the concequences of what you are asking. The new player who has 0 perks will not be able to fly any of the fast late war planes. Unless they are experienced pilots they will die a lot!


 They already die a lot, Clifra. Planes don't matter. Think of the mathematical concept of infinity. Infinity + infinity is still just infinity. They die infinitely, everytime they up. The only difference is do they ruin the game for the rest of the people or not.

 The state and mindset of the "new player" is grossly exaggerated amongst the community IMO. Remember back on our own newbie days - we didn't care how much we died. We took for granted we die a lot. Why? Because we were newbies.

 All the 'best' or 'recommended' planes didn't matter. We just died. It wasn't only after we began to understand about flying and stuff, did fast planes or turny planes started to matter.

 This tendency to believe that "newbies will quit if they don't have an easy plane" is circulated around ferociously - but I dare say it's a myth. People just adapt to what the game offers.

 What really makes the people quit, is repeated experiences of frustration, lameness, and stagnant gameplay. And it's not the newbies who are quitting either. It's the vets.

 
Quote
This will create much more frustration to an already difficult and frustrating game to the new player.


 It's basically the same thing in every flight sim game Clifra. People cope with frustrations, and get motivated to fly better. They adapt to things.

 If someone is gonna quit just because they have to pay a small sum of 'game money' to fly a powerful plane, then the chances are they will quit for some other reason already.

 And it's not like the planes are inaccessible, or perked at hundreds of points which require months to build up the perks to just fly it once. It's 3 points. You could fly and go HO every sortie and that'll still earn you enough perks to fly a late war plane.

Quote
They are confidence builders. Granted, they may use them as a crutch and never learn the shear joy of the early war turners. It's the way things are.


 The question is, do they have to be this way?

Quote
Imaging the new player who logs on to AH for the 1st time and it real stoked to fly the P51D and he finds out he can't until he earns some perk points. Can you not hear the uterances of "Man, this game sucks!". One lost free trialer.


 The same thing can be applied to any perked plane Clifra.

 Some people's favorites are the jets and rockets. Brit fans love the Spit14. USN fans may want the ultimate Corsair. These are all perked. They don't complain about it. They cope with it. Despite the outrageous perk prices slapped on the F4U-4 or the Spit14, or even the Ta152H, nobody ever complains about it even if they'd love to fly it.

 People learn to cope with stuff. Complaints don't last forever, and it's not always "I'm discontent, so I'm gonna quit".

 However, unlike the discontent(if any,) with perked planes, think about the consistent complaints regarding game play of late. Complaints about 'runners'. The horde. Etc.. these are what really make people quit.


Quote
Not only this, now that you've perked the runners favorite planes what do you think they are going to do? You got it, run more.


 They already run as much as they can. The 'runniness' already reached a terminal point, so it basically makes no difference in gameplay at all.
 
 However, the difference is, this time, the absolute number of 'runners' is gonna be reduced since those performers are perked.

 Most people barely manage 1.0 k/d in the MA. If we assume they can maybe earn 1~1.5 perk point per sortie, the late war planes which cost 3 points are gonna take about two sorties to earn.

 In other words, someone with a 1.0 k/d is gonna be flying a late-war plane every 3rd sortie they up(as compared to every sortie currently). The numbers are effectively down to 1/3rd of what it used to be. The rest of those people are flying those 'in-between' sorties in mid-war planes.

 The runners may run more, but they're only 1/3rd the numbers they used to be. The rest 2/3rds will be flying in mid-war planes, which have a lower performance margin, and can be caught up and forced to fight much more easily.

 
Quote
They will be even less inclined to engage for fear of losing those perkies. So now you've only made one problem worse. Now these guys will do nothing but vulch, cherry pick and run.


 Until they're caught and shot down.

 Remember we're talking about the average level of pilots here. The good pilots escape from hectic fights even in Zekes. The average pilot pushes his luck so far, until he gets shot down once.

 Then, his 3 points are lost. With his meager 1.0 k/d he'll have to fly other free planes once or twice to stack up some perks.

 And every time those average pilots up mid-war free planes, is one less late-war plane in the MA.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 02:30:54 PM by Kweassa »

Offline killnu

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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2005, 03:25:48 PM »
ahh  oh well, live on LA7High...
Karma, it follows you every where you go...

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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2005, 05:09:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech


True, I'm sure the Spit9 with hispanos or something else fast with cannons would swiftly take its place.

But I, again respectfully, disagree with you.  When I fly online, its La7s everywhere.  

Please note Im not the author of this post or whining about being shot down by them.  I'm just stating they are everywhere.

Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2005, 05:49:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.


This is pretty close to what I think also but I'd slightly disagree.

Considering MA-style fighter combat the only disadvantage the La-7 has is its range and even that is arguable considering the distance between fields on most MA maps.

IMO the most important properties for MA-fighter are:

- Speed
- Maneuverability (turnrate mostly)
- Armament
- Climb rate/Acceleration/Power-to-Weight ratio

High alt performance is a plus but not that significant considering the typical fighting alts in the MA and there is a perk plane with not that good hi-alt performance (granded, still better than LA-7s), the Tempest.

IMO La-7 is from very good to excellent in all of these four categories.

The next most popular planes, Spitfires, P-51D, Typhoon and the Dora all lack the "very good/excellent- grade" in at least one of the above categories. So therefore I think the La-7 pilots would spread fairly evenly between these planes.

The fact that the LA-7 doesn't really have weaknesses for MA-style combat seems to be the problem here...IMO all other popular MA- rides suffer from at least one of those weaknesses.

IMO this is the biggest reason why LA-7 would get perked.

Personally, I really don't care whether it would get perked or not.
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2005, 05:51:24 PM »
At least the 3-cannon version should be perked.
There are planes with higher prod #s that the 3 cannon lala, that ARE perked.
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