Gay Marriage

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Silat
No you missed the point.

It was an exercise to show you the hate in the argument.
If it makes it easier substitute the word Christian for Homosexual.
Tell me if that is tolerable to you.

Ok, I understand your earlier statement now. I think you misunderstand, most Christians dont hate homosexuals, they just believe the activity is wrong based on what the Bible has to say about it. (Seagoon has shown this far better than I could have) Those Christians that do *hate* homosexuals are committing a sin imo. God commands us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. That doesnt mean we have to agree with our neighbors actions.

You notice that they did not standup when my family was mentioned.

1) You are a big boy and can defend yourself and yours just fine

2) I actually thought the mods would censor his post and saw no need to quote him or respond to him in anyway that might encourage his behavior here in the new User Friendly O'Club.

3) Who really paid attention to him anyways? Anyone who knows you, knows you are an extremely helpful and courteous person.

If you dont want to have gay people married in your church then dont let them.

Churches WILL get sued for refusing to marry gay people. It will go to the Supreme Court eventually. When that happens, Freedom of Religion will be compromised.

Marriage is restricted in more than one way, ie you cant marry your sister, first cousin, a minor, animals, men cant marry men etc. Marriage is, and always has been a union between a man and a woman. I hope it stays that way.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Elfie
Ok, I understand your earlier statement now. I think you misunderstand, most Christians dont hate homosexuals, they just believe the activity is wrong based on what the Bible has to say about it. (Seagoon has shown this far better than I could have) Those Christians that do *hate* homosexuals are committing a sin imo. God commands us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. That doesnt mean we have to agree with our neighbors actions.

<<< Now we are getting somewhere. It is fine if you dont agree. But making law to persecute or make less equal is what the Christian Right is trying to do..>>>>

 

1) You are a big boy and can defend yourself and yours just fine

< But when people ignore and dont stand up to hate it gets stronger>>

2) I actually thought the mods would censor his post and saw no need to quote him or respond to him in anyway that might encourage his behavior here in the new User Friendly O'Club.

<>

3) Who really paid attention to him anyways? Anyone who knows you, knows you are an extremely helpful and courteous person.

<>
 

Churches WILL get sued for refusing to marry gay people. It will go to the Supreme Court eventually. When that happens, Freedom of Religion will be compromised.

<>

Marriage is restricted in more than one way, ie you cant marry your sister, first cousin, a minor, animals, men cant marry men etc. Marriage is, and always has been a union between a man and a woman. I hope it stays that way.

<>

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by Silat
Well Im not really surprised at the non response of those who are hateful of gays.
You notice that they did not standup when my family was mentioned.

All the posts aimed at you were edited by the time I got here so I have no idea what was said.

On the subject of 'hateful of gays', while there are crack pots in every group, a true Christian would never hate someone because they were gay.

I'm against gay marrage but I don't hate anyone because of their sexual orientation.  I had a good friend who 'came out of the closet' and became openly gay.  My friendship with him didn't end because of it and I don't think any feeling person would have ended a friendship because of it either.

My point is that you can dissagree with someone's lifestyle without hating them.

[Silat]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk
All the posts aimed at you were edited by the time I got here so I have no idea what was said.

On the subject of 'hateful of gays', while there are crack pots in every group, a true Christian would never hate someone because they were gay.

I'm against gay marrage but I don't hate anyone because of their sexual orientation.  I had a good friend who 'came out of the closet' and became openly gay.  My friendship with him didn't end because of it and I don't think any feeling person would have ended a friendship because of it either.

My point is that you can dissagree with someone's lifestyle without hating them.

We agree on the fact that we can disagree:) But I would never mandate my religious beliefs as the law of the land. And I am not saying you would:)

And for the record I dont lump all Christians in one barrel. Which is why I use the words radical and religious right for the sake of these discussions. I think most associate those terms with those who want to change the law to support their interpretation of what their God wants.

[Elfie]

<>

I honestly dont believe it's a scare tactic here in Sue-Happy America. People sue for all sorts of crazy stuff, whats even crazier is they win many times.

<>

You are correct, my apologies for not saying anything. This is an angle that didnt occur to me until you mentioned it.

<>

The risk of birth defects caused my marrying close relations (no matter how low) is unacceptable imo because the risk can be avoided entirely by merely not having sex with or marrying your close relatives. I can see your point about making laws to force others to live according to my beliefs. Christians arent the ones trying to change the very definition of Marriage. Gays and gay rights activists are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us.

[Elfie]

And for the record I dont lump all Christians in one barrel. Which is why I use the words radical and religious right for the sake of these discussions. I think most associate those terms with those who want to change the law to support their interpretation of what their God wants.

Ok, that clarifies something for me. Go ahead with your labels

I'm in agreement with Seagoon that the Church shouldnt involve itself in politics, but that we should exercise our right to vote as American citizens and vote according to our beliefs. ( I still refuse to vote for the office of president on the same grounds that I discussed before in a previous thread )

[Charon]

Look at all these responses since Friday... Weather must not have been as good elsewhere as it was here in Chicago I hope you guys got out a little and enjoyed the weekend. I sure did.

Charon

[Elfie]

I had a good friend who 'came out of the closet' and became openly gay. My friendship with him didn't end because of it and I don't think any feeling person would have ended a friendship because of it either.

One of the very best friends I have ever had was a lesbian. I didnt even know she was a lesbian until I asked her out. When I  became aware of her homosexual lifestyle it didnt change our friendship. Well, now that I think about it, thats not true, our friendship DID change. We grew alot closer emotionally because she could open up and talk about things that she didnt feel comfortable with before.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Elfie
Ok, that clarifies something for me. Go ahead with your labels

I'm in agreement with Seagoon that the Church shouldnt involve itself in politics, but that we should exercise our right to vote as American citizens and vote according to our beliefs. ( I still refuse to vote for the office of president on the same grounds that I discussed before in a previous thread )

Im counting on your vote as Im running for Supreme Dictator..

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Silat
Im counting on your vote as Im running for Supreme Dictator..

I'm truly sorry Lew, but I couldnt vote for you and still have a clear conscience.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Elfie


I'm truly sorry Lew, but I couldnt vote for you and still have a clear conscience.

You will believe in me or you are going to HELL:)

           

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Seagoon
In a quick review of my sermons, I can only find one where I responded directly to the subject of gay marriage. Rather than defending myself on the issue, I'll simply print the application portion of the sermon covering what I "preached and promoted" to counter homosexual activism here, and let you decide whether you think this is the promotion of violence. It would however still land me in trouble if preached in Sweden.

Seagoon!  Great sermon!  I'm not sure what aspects would be illegal in Sweden, but I don't see that you would be charged with a hate crime in Canada.

I have a question though...and I'm not trying to be mean or insulting:  Why don't you live by that sermon?

Why wouldn't you want to be like Paul and use the Good News and your witnessing to the culture as your means to change culture?  Instead of trying to legislate moral behavior (which doesn't work well), why not change the culture's desire for the behavior.  That way, even if gay marriage was legal, no one would exercise that right because they wouldn't want to.  

From what I understand, God has given me the right to choose to lead a righteous life or not...why do Christians feel they need to legally force me to lead their version of a righteous life and strip that God given right from me?  I know you want to save as many from damnation as possible, but even if you legislate every moral code in the Bible and I live by them all, I will not be saved according to your beliefs because I admit that I do not have faith that the Bible is more than the written word of a man and not a revealed work of God.  Of course you could throw the Constitution out the window and try to legally force me to believe...but I would probably prefer to endure persecution and exicution over admitting to something that I do not believe is true.

You mention that your church was outraged about the 10c removal from the courthouse.  And based on your posts, you seem to be outraged by "liberal activist" judges and their decisions enough to support reigning in their power and giving more to legislative bodies where religion is concerned.

Why doesn't your church see that when a judge overturns a law like the ban on gay marriage or ordering the removal of the 10c or "under God", that it is not an attack on Christianity.  As you say, governments are of this world and for this world...the church is in this world but not of it.  If that is the case, then these court decisions cannot harm Christianity or the church...it would only force the congregation to allow God to be their judge of immoral activity rather than an imperfect human judge.  The way I see it, that is better for all in the end.  Everyone gets to live by their beliefs so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.  And in the end God decides who lived the righteous life.

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Silat
Well Im not really surprised at the non response of those who are hateful of gays.
You notice that they did not standup when my family was mentioned.

Silat, Avro, et al,

A few minor points regarding discussion and debate on this bulletin board in general.

First off, I don't post here as part of a bloc, I am not trying to score points for one team or another, I try to view these discussions as something like the discussion that might occur if we all went out to a pub during one of the cons and began discussing life, the universe, and everything. I self-consciously try to post in exactly the same way I would speak were you sitting directly accross the table from me staring at me over a pint. My view is that while we are obviously divided by viewpoints we are all friends and acquaintances who share a common interest in flight sims in general and one flight sim in particular.

Now, please understand, because I am an evangelical Christian, the means are just as important to me as the ends, and the grounds of an argument are just as important as the final conclusion. So while I understand you lump everyone into the "anti-gay marriage" group, I do not. In some cases I may be further apart from someone in that camp, than someone in the other camp. Let me show you what I mean with a couple of extreme examples:

I am actually much further removed from person A than person B:

PERSON A

Presuppositions/Premises:
1) There is no God
2) There are no such thing as ethics only human constructs
3) Biological and Social Darwinism are the rule
4) For humans to advance, the strong must prevail, the weak must be subjugated or destroyed
5) Homosexuality is contrary to nature, it is a sign of weakness and decadence

Conclusion:
6) Therefore Gay Marriage Must not be Permitted

PERSON B

Presupposistions/Premises:
1) There is a God
2) There are ethical constraints that are absolute that he has given us
3) We should obey his commands
4) Amongst his commands are clear instructions to protect the weakest and the most defenseless in our society
5) Gays are among those who need to be protected

Conclusion:
6) Gay marriage should be permitted

Although I obviously would disagree with the conclusion of person B, I am in even more profound disagreement with every single presupposition of person A.  Also, while I can possibly debate constructively with person B, given their commitment to presuppositions 1-4, I will probably have less possibility for profitable interaction with person A, given that our underlying worldviews are completely and irreconcilably opposed. Also, in practical application, should worldview A come to absolute power, I am likely to end up in their concentration camp as yet another example of the "weak minded."

Now as to the ad hominem problem on the B.B., the offensive line "are you gay Silat, is that why you are so pro-gay?" is only one small expression of it. For instance, throughout this conversation, and in this thread, it has been commonly insinuated by many that those who are opposed to gay marriage do so irrationally and mostly because they hate gays. Follow Silat and Avro's threads above for instance. Unfortunately, I've gotten used to this. I am used to being treated like an imbecile or a hatemonger because of my faith, but have tried to commit myself to acting here on the principle of Romans 12:18-19 "Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." When I have felt my ability to do this slipping, I've abandoned threads, on a couple of occasions I'll freely admit that I've abandoned a thread because I've found  that any possibility of civil discourse has entirely evaporated. But if we committed ourselves to running around rebuking every ad hominem on the board, we'd find discussion impossible and probably all run afoul of rule #6.

In any event, if I have personally been uncivil to anyone here I apologize, I would ask you all to bring any personal breaches of the Romans 12 principle above to my attention so that I might remedy them.

Anywho, I could say more, but I'm being called to dinner, and there are some calls that must be answered.

- SEAGOON

[Silat]

Originally posted by crowMAW
Seagoon!  Great sermon!  I'm not sure what aspects would be illegal in Sweden, but I don't see that you would be charged with a hate crime in Canada.

I have a question though...and I'm not trying to be mean or insulting:  Why don't you live by that sermon?

Why wouldn't you want to be like Paul and use the Good News and your witnessing to the culture as your means to change culture?  Instead of trying to legislate moral behavior (which doesn't work well), why not change the culture's desire for the behavior.  That way, even if gay marriage was legal, no one would exercise that right because they wouldn't want to.  

And in the end God decides who lived the righteous life.

Snipped for courtesy..

Crow very nicely put. My thoughts exactly.....

[Silat]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Silat, Avro, et al,

A few minor points regarding discussion and debate on this bulletin board in general.

First off, I don't post here as part of a bloc, I am not trying to score points for one team or another, I try to view these discussions as something like the discussion that might occur if we all went out to a pub during one of the cons and began discussing life, the universe, and everything. I self-consciously try to post in exactly the same way I would speak were you sitting directly accross the table from me staring at me over a pint. My view is that while we are obviously divided by viewpoints we are all friends and acquaintances who share a common interest in flight sims in general and one flight sim in particular.

Now, please understand, because I am an evangelical Christian, the means are just as important to me as the ends, and the grounds of an argument are just as important as the final conclusion. So while I understand you lump everyone into the "anti-gay marriage" group, I do not. In some cases I may be further apart from someone in that camp, than someone in the other camp. Let me show you what I mean with a couple of extreme examples:

I am actually much further removed from person A than person B:

PERSON A

Presuppositions/Premises:
1) There is no God
2) There are no such thing as ethics only human constructs
3) Biological and Social Darwinism are the rule
4) For humans to advance, the strong must prevail, the weak must be subjugated or destroyed
5) Homosexuality is contrary to nature, it is a sign of weakness and decadence

Conclusion:
6) Therefore Gay Marriage Must not be Permitted

PERSON B

Presupposistions/Premises:
1) There is a God
2) There are ethical constraints that are absolute that he has given us
3) We should obey his commands
4) Amongst his commands are clear instructions to protect the weakest and the most defenseless in our society
5) Gays are among those who need to be protected

Conclusion:
6) Gay marriage should be permitted

Although I obviously would disagree with the conclusion of person B, I am in even more profound disagreement with every single presupposition of person A.  Also, while I can possibly debate constructively with person B, given their commitment to presuppositions 1-4, I will probably have less possibility for profitable interaction with person A, given that our underlying worldviews are completely and irreconcilably opposed. Also, in practical application, should worldview A come to absolute power, I am likely to end up in their concentration camp as yet another example of the "weak minded."

Now as to the ad hominem problem on the B.B., the offensive line "are you gay Silat, is that why you are so pro-gay?" is only one small expression of it. For instance, throughout this conversation, and in this thread, it has been commonly insinuated by many that those who are opposed to gay marriage do so irrationally and mostly because they hate gays. Follow Silat and Avro's threads above for instance. Unfortunately, I've gotten used to this. I am used to being treated like an imbecile or a hatemonger because of my faith, but have tried to commit myself to acting here on the principle of Romans 12:18-19 "Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." When I have felt my ability to do this slipping, I've abandoned threads, on a couple of occasions I'll freely admit that I've abandoned a thread because I've found  that any possibility of civil discourse has entirely evaporated. But if we committed ourselves to running around rebuking every ad hominem on the board, we'd find discussion impossible and probably all run afoul of rule #6.

In any event, if I have personally been uncivil to anyone here I apologize, I would ask you all to bring any personal breaches of the Romans 12 principle above to my attention so that I might remedy them.

Anywho, I could say more, but I'm being called to dinner, and there are some calls that must be answered.

- SEAGOON

Are you out of the bathroom yet?

You and I have talked personally and explained ourselves. We have talked about family and exchanged family information.

I would never ask you or anyone on this board what there personal preferences were regarding sex. And I would never ask about their family members. These questions have nothing to do with our conversations.
I stand by my statement that if no one stands up to HATE speech then we will all suffer the consequences.

If someone on this board said you were a !#@($*$(*)($* Christian then I would be the first to standup for you. If Ive missed that happening then I standup now to defend you:)

I accept that we disagree on many things and that doesnt mean we cant have heated but polite discourse.
I will never understand your stance on some issues but that is OK. As long as you know that you are wrong and I am right:)