P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)

[Kweassa]

While your points are valid Kwes, I rarely see any Jug pilot go into a flaps out turn fight above 10k.

 Well. That's true...

 But then again, for that very same reason, I rarely see any jug pilot in  the first place. The jug, is just not a "MA" plane.

In all my encounters with P47s (which i usually win ), it comes down to the biggest advantage the A5 holds, armament. While sometimes i do get my paint scratched by 50 cals, in a slow twisting fight it comes down to damage done with a short burst. I'll take cannons everytime.

 For me, the typical jug encounter, is not fighting him at all unless I'm like 5k above him... but then again, a typical 190A sortie is always like that. At least, all my sorties are.

 I have no fantasies about the 190A. Anything I can outrun, I'll try and fight it as much as I can. Turn fights.. E fights.. BnZs.. But against anything faster, I'll just give up.

[Overlag]

i like both the 190a5 and the 47d11.

im sure the new model will make the 47d11 even better vs the 190s though. not sure why AH models german planes so bad....... but thats another subject

[ghi]

Originally posted by Overlag


 not sure why AH models german planes so bad....... but thats another subject

 yep, i agree, after 3-4 years playing this game this is still the worst disapointment. The  german aces wouldn't make 200- 300 +victories, if the german planes would  have been soo bad.

[1K3]

I've also read some journal from a fighter pilot (net) sayingf that their P-47 can turn with the "jerries" up high. For low alts, hmmmm im not sure but again P-47 is great at hi-alt.

[JAWS2003]

This is how the early P-47's matched against FW-190 in June 1943 at 26000 feet and 6000 feet:


I don't think you can get to this conclusions in AH.

[Westy]

"this is still the worst disapointment."

 I gotta chuckle when I read someone compare the  MA game environment, with it's in-cockpit AWACs radar, ICONs and over all fantasy environment, to real life combat in WWII.

 Then again maybe the USAAF, RAF and LW pilots really did ***** about each others flight model, weapons load outs, lag, HO's, perk points, others not "fighting" thier way, the give-away icons, FB-111 awacs radar, arena resets, augering suicidal runstangs and about always running into gangbanging hordes.



p.s. the charts from 1943 were for the early C model which was imo a pig. The D with it's paddle blade prop and other improvements was a different horse.

[Hajo]

By the way....fastest Jug through the D Model was the P47C.

Top speed listed at 433 considerably faster then the B which is about 4mph faster then A model FWs and Spit9

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Westy
"this is still the worst disapointment."

 I gotta chuckle when I read someone compare the  MA game environment, with it's in-cockpit AWACs radar, ICONs and over all fantasy environment, to real life combat in WWII.

 Then again maybe the USAAF, RAF and LW pilots really did ***** about each others flight model, weapons load outs, lag, HO's, perk points, others not "fighting" thier way, the give-away icons, FB-111 awacs radar, arena resets, augering suicidal runstangs and about always running into gangbanging hordes.



p.s. the charts from 1943 were for the early C model which was imo a pig. The D with it's paddle blade prop and other improvements was a different horse.

this is how i feal about the whole thing

if its american, take the BEST case report on the aircraft, with best fuel, best engine best maintainance etc.

if its German/Japanise, take the worst case report, flown by some newbie who has no idea how to fly . The plane is also kitted out wrong and runs on "bad fuel".

If its British, it doesnt matter, they didnt fight the war aparently. Put them under the German/Japanise list.

But no one is really at fault there. The winners of the war write the history, not the loosers.

Thats why the 38/47/51 are the best planes of the war according to everyone.

I mean its hard for 12x 38/47/51s to not win against 4x 109/190s isnt it?

[Urchin]

HTC has modelled the LW planes as being more than competitive, in my opinion.  

The G-10 absolutely dominates the P-51/47/38, and the G-6 is roughly on par with them.  The 190 is a bit tougher to fly in, but in my opinion the A5 is quite good against the US iron, the A8 is a little underwhelming (which is odd, although people have gone round and round about it for years) and the D-9 is also quite good, although it really isn't a "dogfighter".

Of course, that seems to match up reasonably well with the idea that the FW-190 was a great plane for a beginner or average pilot, but an experienced pilot could really get more out of a 109.

I know I preferred the 190 for a long time, until I came to realize that the 109 was superior for fighting.

[Kweassa]

That's very interesting Urchin  It seems you and I've gone opposite ways, tho' I'm not a good pilot like you.

 My interest was always with the 109s. I was a 109 fan since Aces of Europe.. EAW.. Fighter Ace.. and eventually Aces High. As an AH newbie since 1.05, I never for once touched Spits or N1K2s in the beginning, and learned the entire AH game from the 109 pilots' point of view.

 The superior climb was awesome.. the plane itself is IMO one of the most slick and beautiful in WW2... and there was something about its style - not a real diver.. not a turner.. but a hybrid type of fighter utilizing short bursts of speed and quick in-and-out attacks.

 The problem is, since the AH population boom, the MA sort of in its own unique way, started resembling the real war. Every fight is a multi-engagement environment.. the battles became more hectic.. and the 1vs1 fights just never happens anymore, unless you're willing to be surrounded by 5 more enemies at low altitudes right after you shoot one guy down.

 And surprisingly, while I felt a lot safer in 109Gs, it was the 190As that started giving out really successful sorties. Massive firepower.. delightful high speed maneuvering.. this is something the 109 just doesn't have.

 And since I'm techincally an average pilot, I think I'm beginning to understand why Galland wanted to stop 109 production and rely entirely on 190s... simple plane.. simple planning.. simple attacks..

 Currently, I almost entirely gave up on 109s.. I'm flying the 190A-8 now.. this plane is THE multi-engagement, cherrypick king! Just be sure to run away at the right moment.. and the 190 is everything the 109 is not... and I like it.

[SirLoin]

Damn good read Kweesa...I agree on the 190A8 too..Lol!

[bozon]

Originally posted by JAWS2003
This is how the early P-47's matched against FW-190 in June 1943 at 26000 feet and 6000 feet:


I don't think you can get to this conclusions in AH.
 

That report was made by the RAF. They really did not like jug in the beggining after being used to their spits.

From the same place you linked here's another report from early 44 with P47D4. It had water injection but I think still no paddle blade prop at that time. results are different.




Bozon

[hogenbor]

I've been flying occasionally for about three years here in AH and I am average at best.

In my opinion the Fw-190A is a dog in AH. The A-5 feels quite agile because of decent acceleration and excellent rate of roll but falls apart once you need to turn, especially at low speeds. Even at high speed the stall horn goes off at the slightest provocation of turning and I also have flown in into the ground because the plane couldn't pull out tightly enough. Not because of compression, just unable to pull out.

The A8 is useless if you have to fight someone 1v1. There are undoubtely guys that can be succesful in it, but put pilots of equal skill in an A8 and almost any other fighter and the guy in the A8 will lose.

The 109s have weaknesses but the G10 is uber indeed. Nothing can catch you. But how often do you manage to HIT anyone when flying the G10? (same holds true for the D9) I can evade anything, but to kill anything in it I need to get very close, preferably when the intended victim is not aware of me. A well flown Spit V can evade the G10 forever.

Almost all historical 'evidence' about WWII air combat has been overturned at least three times since I started flying, but doesn't anyone agree that an Fw-190A (in general) should be a perfect match for the Spit IX? Not in AH, look at their eny values! Of course pilot skill should play a role, but that much?

[Kweassa]

Maybe you'd find my turn radius testings interesting guys. Currently, I've finished from a6m2 upto P-38s and going on the rest of the P, S, T planes..  It was a massive test, and I've found some interesting pointers about a lot of planes to chew about.

 I'll post it at the AV forums in a few days, but just to help the discussions, these are the results I've got for the Fw190s:

Test Criteria:

Weapons/Ammunition
1. standard weapons loadout was preferred
2. for planes with different armament loadouts the most preferred
   loadout was chosen (ie. 20mm options on the C.205)
3. planes with alternate standard loadouts were tested accordingly
   (ie. Bf109G with 20mms and 30mms were tested separately)
4. for planes with different ammo settings, the most preferred
   loadout was chosen (ie. 3400 rounds of M2 50cal for the P-47s)
5. external loadouts, were not used (ie. rocket pods, gun pods, bomb racks)

Fuel
1. fuel is set to 75%

Throttle
1. planes were tested at maximum possible throttle setting

Altitude
1. altitude was between 0~500ft
2. variance in altitude during turn tests, were contained to
   less than 100ft change in altitude

Flaps
1. turn performance was tested with;
   normal, one notch, full flaps individually

Stall Limiter settings
1. turn performance was tested with the Stall Limiter method, minimizing human errors
   SL angle is set to 0.05
2. for planes that cannot handle 0.05 due to various reasons (such as leading edge slats)
   the appropriate SL angle was tested. In most cases, 1.0 to 1.3 SL angle was used.
3. In the case of planes using SL setting higher than 0.05, it translates to;

  "the higher the SL angle required for testing, the more difficult that particular
   plane is, to control during turns"

Test subject
1. All "fighter" class planes except the Me262A-1 and the Me163B, are tested
2. the tested area of performance is defined as follows;

 'time required to turn one full circle (360 degrees), while maintaining
   tightest turn radius possible'

 ....

 Results for the Aces High2 Fw190s:

------------------------------
Type (SL angle used)
- time to complete under normal setting (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under one notch of flap (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under full flap (average turn speed), radius
------------------------------


Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5)
- 21 seconds (180mph), 269.0m
- 21 seconds (162mph), 242.1m
- N/A

Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5)
4xMG151/20
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 21 seconds (171mph), 255.6m
- N/A
2xMG151/20, 2xMK108
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 23 seconds (172mph), 281.6m
- N/A

Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5)
- 22 seconds (181mph), 283.4m
- 21 seconds (172mph), 257.1m
- N/A

Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5)
- 23 seconds (179mph), 293.0m
- 22 seconds (171mph), 267.8m
- N/A


Notes:
* Fw190s cannot keep turn tight enough to extend full flaps
* Fw190A-8 with MK108 turns a bit worse than standard 4x20mm, at slow speeds
* The AH Fw190D-9, really does outturn the AH Fw190A-8. Fact finally confirmed.

[SirLoin]

Ya but an A8 w %75 gas  has way more fuel tahn a dora..equal gas I would take A8 in a turn contest..