The IRA end its armed campaign.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Replicant
Just need the rest of the Nationalist and Loyalist groups to disarm now.  However, if Northern Ireland became a united Ireland, and predominantly Catholic, then I wouldn't be surprised if the Loyalist Protestant faction to start bombing again.

Honestly, I expect that eventually, as population balances shift, Northern Ireland will eventually be united with Ireland and then, yes, I'd be not at all surprised to see the Orangemen start the whole bloody mess all over again.  Really very sad that people think they can inflict their will on a people who have made a democratic decision by blowing up random menbers of that people.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Karnak
I'm sorry, but I just don't get the sympathy for terrorists not even fighting for their own people that seems to exist here.

There is no "one man's terrorist is another man's freedon fighter"

While civilians may have died I do not recall the French Resistance, 40-45, blowing up schools , buses or market places.

The deliberate targeting of civilians is terrorism no matter the cause. With most of these people it is not the cause as much as it is the killing. They would find some other cause to kill for.

One only needs to look at India. They achieved their goals without violence. If the Palestinians had taken the same track they would have their country today.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Karnak
I leave that to the voters of Ireland and Northern Ireland, and they have thus far endorsed that state of affairs.  If they change their tune, I expect the British to leave.

Well, the "voters" of all Ireland never really got a chance to speak on the issue did they? The Act of Union was not put up for popular vote and there are allegations of massive bribery in the Irish Parliament to get it passed.

The Government of Ireland Act in 1920 introduced by the government of David Lloyd George, divided Ireland into two territories. I don't think that one was up for popular vote either. In fact, it led to the Irish Civil War of 1922-23.

So, "two Irelands" is not really the result of any popular vote is it?

Again, it all comes down to WHEN the land was stolen. The stealers always say it was OK when they did it but not OK anymore. Or perhaps that it wasn't OK then but what's done is done and can't be undone now. The ones stolen from say it was never OK.

And this is true all around the world in all these cases of stealing.

[Karnak]

Toad,

I don't know if it has ever been put to a popular vote in Ireland, but it has in Northern Ireland.  In addition I have seen polls of Ireland and it wouldn't come close to passing there either.  In any case it needs to be both.  Ireland should not be able to force Northern Ireland to join  it and Northern Ireland should not be able to force itself on Ireland.

Also keep in mind that if Northern Ireland had joined the Republic of Ireland in the '70s, the IRA would simply have turned to trying to overthrow the Irish government so as to establish a Marxist state.


The fact is that the two Irelands are the way the people in Ireland want it right now.  The IRA didn't like that and so took to blowing people up.  I'm not saying the Brit's hands are not stained, but the IRA had no justification at all.

[Toad]

Karnak, I might say that the fact that the entire West is part of the US is the way people want it right now.

However, I think if everyone who lived West of the Mississippi had voted on that prior to Lewis and Clark's expedition the results would be a little different.

Could it be that something similar could be said about Ireland?

Like I said, it's all about WHEN the stealing happened.

[Replicant]

I've actually heard more comments recently that the ROI won't want to take back NI now because it's flourishing in the EU (more so than NI).  Okay, Britain built up NI and it has a lot of industry/factories, but a unified Ireland would have to convert to the Euro, design and implement a united kind of emblem for all government agencies etc., plus a lot of other internal changes to how things are run.  In other words, it would cost a hell of a lot of money for it to happen.

The UK used to have around 20,000 troops over in NI.  I'm not sure of the figure now because they've already withdrawn some troops already.  They also run the main airfield/airport, so money for that would have to come from somewhere too.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Skydancer
I never did say that the US govt funded the IRA though some pretty influential people did.

For those who are claiming they were fighting a war ( at least thats what you seem to infer ) try telling that to the little boy in Warrington, or the women and children of Omagh or Birmingham or London.

For those that claim there are two sides to every story try applying the same principle when discussing the decacle in Iraq
or Al Quaedas aims. There is only one valid side to a story involving terrorism against innocent people and that is the side that is right.

It is galling to sit and watch the news about Islamic terror. Watch US politicians making grand speeches, then in the next item watch other US politicians acting as apologists for a terrorist organisation.

So its wrong to blow up families and kids and innocent people if you have a brown face or are a muslim, but if you are catholic and Irish thats Ok? Come on.

I'm not trolling I'm just mad when I see that kind of stuff.

Senator Kennedy and others should be deeply ashamed and yeah they owe those families they've given money to help destroy an apology.

As for the Protestant paramillitary groups. Yes they are just as bad. Racist thugs with guns. But I don't recall them planting bombs ( could be wrong)

I'm glad the IRA have ended it. Shame it took them so long and so many lives were lost before they realised that blowing up British people won't get you anywhere. Lets hope those equaly evil Muslim extremists realise too.

Which US politicians are supporting IRA terror?  Please, give specific examples and quotes.  Are any of them in a position to directly determine US policy?  (the answer is "no" to that, btw).

If an American politician makes statements supporting the killing of innocents, be certain that he/she will be taken to task in the press and at the polls for it.  But our constitution guarantees their right to say anything they want.  Statements made by elected representatives are NOT government policy over here, and I believe the same holds true over there.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Toad
Like I said, it's all about WHEN the stealing happened.

I think that's irrelevent now.  It's happened; it's just part of Anglo Irish history.  Although they recently voted, there will come another time where the people of Northern Ireland will vote to see if they want to remain a part of the United Kingdom.  If they vote that they want out it will then go to a Republic of Ireland vote to see whether they want Northern Ireland to be part of a bigger 'united' Ireland.  Then there would be a General Election to bring in a new government for the 'united' Ireland.  In all honesty I can't see anything changing for another 20 years.

[Toad]

With respect, Replicant, that's exactly what those who did the stealing always say.

It's what we in the US say about taking the entire middle of the continent starting from the time of European government involvement here until the US government took the "lower 48" states.

All I'm saying is that while all of us who have benefited from the taking of land trot out the old "what's done is done" explanation, I can also understand those that lost land saying "hey... it's not DONE... that land was MINE!"

I don't know how to fix it... after all, what's done is done. But I also realize there are going to be some people that never accept what was done.

[Replicant]

Well, if all stolen lands were returned then the world would be a different place.  For example, where would the USA go?  Ask the Red Indian's if they could stay there?  Countries have always been invaded, way before we held a moral ground.  It's just how 'things' were done whether we like it or not.  The UK has been invaded loads and loads of times since the original Briton's and Celts.

[Toad]

My point exactly; it's all about "when".

[Replicant]

rshubert, I found this which was quite interesting (old article from 2001/2?):

Financial returns that Friends of Sinn Fein, its fundraising arm, are about to lodge with the US Justice Department show that the republicans received more than $600,000 between November 2000 and last April. This averages about $100,000 (about £69,000) a month, one of the most lucrative six-month periods since a ban on fundraising was lifted, and was mainly raised through a dinner attended by Gerry Adams last year in New York. Sinn Fein/IRA has declared that they have raised about $5m in America since 1995, the real figure raised for the overall republican cause and spent on weapons may never be known. We the victims of terrorism in Ireland from both communities call upon the Bush Administration to return the IRA to the list of international terrorist organisations and to call a halt to their fundraising, which has led to the deaths of thousands in Ireland.  Full Article

Interesting links at the bottom of the following article:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/nireland/story/0,11008,636441,00.html

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Toad
Karnak, I might say that the fact that the entire West is part of the US is the way people want it right now.

However, I think if everyone who lived West of the Mississippi had voted on that prior to Lewis and Clark's expedition the results would be a little different.

Could it be that something similar could be said about Ireland?

Like I said, it's all about WHEN the stealing happened.

Understood, but like with the Louisiana Purchase, that is long out of living memory.  What matters to me is the people living there now, not in the 1600s.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Karnak
Understood, but like with the Louisiana Purchase, that is long out of living memory.  What matters to me is the people living there now, not in the 1600s.

Yep. That's the key. If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now". It's all about when.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer

It is galling to sit and watch the news about Islamic terror. Watch US politicians making grand speeches, then in the next item watch other US politicians acting as apologists for a terrorist organisation.
 

The old evil U.S. empire out to getcha again there Skylilter?