Withdrawal 1972 ABM treaty.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by blur:
As American Indians know very well the government of the United States speaks with forked-tongue with regards to treaties.

 What does ancient history has to do with anything currently discussed? The ABM threaty contains provision for any side to dissolve it upon a few month notice. No broken promises here.
 It is no more immoral then prepaying a loan.

 miko

[Boroda]

It's no more then another "we don't give a flying f@#$" propaganda issue.

Interesting. They withdraw from  treaty that prohibits deploying of an large-scale ABM system, when US didn't yet develop and test even a working local ABM system. They are 40 years behind former USSR in this field. 20-30 years later, when they will probably catch up - the treaty will really be obsolete.

The program is simply ridiculous. 110 ABMs to protecty the entire US. How many warheads they will intercept? No more then 55. 5 modern ICBMS.

What Blur said. Military-Industrial complex welfare. Good idea to increase fundings to cold-war level.

[Raubvogel]

Originally posted by Boroda:
They are 40 years behind former USSR in this field. 20-30 years later, when they will probably catch up - the treaty will really be obsolete.

  Oh boy, here we go again. I almost forgot how far behind the USSR we were technologically. Must be why all our sophisticated weapons systems were a generation ahead of anything the Soviets had.

[Udie]

Originally posted by Boroda:
It's no more then another "we don't give a flying f@#$" propaganda issue.

Interesting. They withdraw from  treaty that prohibits deploying of an large-scale ABM system, when US didn't yet develop and test even a working local ABM system. They are 40 years behind former USSR in this field. 20-30 years later, when they will probably catch up - the treaty will really be obsolete.

The program is simply ridiculous. 110 ABMs to protecty the entire US. How many warheads they will intercept? No more then 55. 5 modern ICBMS.

What Blur said. Military-Industrial complex welfare. Good idea to increase fundings to cold-war level.

 HEHEHE you crack me up Boroda.  I guess the reason we gave your country er... mafia all the wellfair we did in the 90's was because of that big powerful technicly superior military of yours.

 Same technology that got you to the moon and won the space race for ya?  

[J_A_B]

I think what Boroda is saying is the USSR was developing and testing an ABM system since the 1960's.  I see it as being possible, but I don't think it'd take the USA 20 years to make up the gap.

J_A_B

[Udie]

Originally posted by J_A_B:
I think what Boroda is saying is the USSR was developing and testing an ABM system since the 1960's.  I see it as being possible, but I don't think it'd take the USA 20 years to make up the gap.

J_A_B

 Hmmm I wonder if they tested it after '72 if they had one?  I take what ever Boroda says worth a grain of salt.  I have come to realize that he is the drunk pissed off commie that others call him in this forum.  Russia more technologicaly advanced than the US? LOL  

 At least it answers my question on whether or not the Russians really believed the propaganda the USSR fed them.

[J_A_B]

"At least it answers my question on whether or not the Russians really believed the propaganda the USSR fed them."

Bah.  He's as much a product of his upbringing as we are of ours.  The truth is somewhere in between what our respective governments said (or do you think the USA always had an unbiased opinion regarding the USSR?).  Both the USSR and the USA spent decades pointing out each other's shortcommings.  He might have much good to say about the USA, but think about it--how much good do you know about the USSR/Russia?

J_A_B

[Thrawn]

In some areas Russia is more advanced.  I mean, they do have a rocket torpedo.  Anyone else got one of those?  And their ABM system is more advanced than that of the US.  And it is deployed.  Do I think that it will take 20-30 yrs for the US to catch up?  Nope.

Most people seem to be ignoring a point that's being made here, in favour of sarcasm.  An ABM system will be extremely costly to create and deploy.  And it probably won't protect the US a whit from nuclear weapons.  Why would a rogue state go through the expense, time and energy of making a missle when it can just walk in a nuke.  For that matter why would a super power?  Corporate wellfare?  Sounds like it to me.

As far as using the ABM to blow away space debris.  I think NASA would come up with a better system for that then the military industrial complex.  Yet NASA's budget is getting raped and the military industrial complex is getting subsidised.  

This is a pretty diffinitive example of where the current US government is coming from right now.  Corporate pork verus putting money into space exploration and research.  They also cut funds for the international space station recently.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]

[funkedup]

Boroda you need to read up a bit.  US had a functional, tested, deployed ABM system 25 years ago.  Spartan and Sprint were excellent missiles.  But the system's scope was limited by treaty and it was shut down for political reasons.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[mrfish]

we need to get rid of all nuclear weapons and develop defensive devices.

if every nation is banned from making nukes (any nukes any amount!) they'll have to make them clandestinely -

they might produce enough to destroy a city but not enough to end civilization.

and if they do get 1 or 2 nukes off there is no advantage because breaking a staggeringly progressive world treaty like that will mean the world will support us disassembling their culture in retaliation and using conventional weapons to make them a memory. there's no place for that stupidity anymore - time to grow up as a species and stop playing with atoms in an irresponsible way...

retired general westmoreland (yes the same vietnam era hawk) has written some stunning work on this if you're interested.

we need to get rid of all nukes period and now not later. they are old and messy and extremely dangerous. times change, get over it.

this weapon of the 50's has no place in an evolving world.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[Udie]

Originally posted by funkedup:
Boroda you need to read up a bit.  US had a functional, tested, deployed ABM system 30 years ago, but it was shut down for political reasons.

 I'm ignorant on the scope of the ABM treaty.  We had a treaty but both countries had ABM systems?  What's all the fuss about then? seriously no sarcasm here, somebody edjumacate me here please...

[Raubvogel]

but Mrfish....what will we use when the aliens come?  

[mrfish]

simple raub....john edwards of 'crossing over' will be sent to irritate them to death....i've thought of everything...

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Boroda:
They are 40 years behind former USSR in this field.

 You really think that Patriot missles (the most advanced missle-interceptor US has deployed today) use vacuum tubes for hardware and magnetic cores for memory?

 My experience was that any solid-state devices (chips, sensors, etc.) USSR had before 1990 were carbon-copy rip-offs from US samples (except inferior quality).

 In the 80s T-72 was way superior to western tanks mechanically but its electronics sucked:
 - atrocious radio
 - inaccurate positioning device (command tanks) that was supposed to track your coordinates on the map
 - fire-control sucked, adjusting the gun stabiliser was analogous to adjusting analog joystick drift on 386 computer - lot of wisardry was required and then it would stard drift anyway. Tanks in defencive positions had to keep the stabilisers off - otherwise you would shortly find your turret pointing backward.
 - night-vision sight was worse then worsless - it's operation required turning on a huge infrared projector - probably visible from the moon to the western night sighths (that did not require illumination).

 How many decades were USSR behind US in fighter plane fly-by-wire technology?

 I mean, everybody knows that russians discovered steam engine, railroads, radio and many other neat things, but with missle interceptors you are probably off the mark.

 miko

[funkedup]

Good overview of US Army programs for defense against nuclear attack, with focus on ABM:  http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/vigilant/intro.html

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]