Author Topic: RAF 150 octane (Read 11414 times)

Neil Stirling1 · « **Reply #120 on:** September 26, 2005, 03:05:49 PM »

Don't let 'em grind you down Neil. I for one enjoy seeing the results of your research for it's own sake, especially as regards Mosquito operations - not stuff I see much of elsewhere.

Thanks Scherf.

Scherf · « **Reply #121 on:** September 26, 2005, 03:18:35 PM »

Angus · « **Reply #122 on:** September 26, 2005, 04:23:45 PM »

Well no matter how it's twisted, - out of 35000 V-1's produced, less than 5000 made impact. (can go looking for a decent breakdown)
A rough guess of shot down V-1's by aircraft is some 3000.
So they DID get chased down. Perhaps on 87 octs?
And getting them was perhaps not so easy. Since there was no special visibility required for their navigation, launching in bad visibility was a perfect option. And normally their deck speed was quite high and sustained.

milian · « **Reply #123 on:** September 27, 2005, 02:08:22 AM »

Spit XIV figures are from Spitfire The History, scanned the serial numbers in, then OCR, then sorted in Excel a few months ago1. The dates are the dates delivered to the MU.

I had to laugh the first time I did it. The book states that "RB series all F XIV Merlin 65", and I accidently put the RM series in as M65 too, which only left 37 Griffon XIV produced by 1/1/45 . . . lol . . . it was 3 am . . . after getting some sleep I realized my mistake a few days later.

Anyone know what " 'Gem' mods " are?

only relevant things I find are the following:

RB161 hit by enemy AA 24-12-44
RB162 hit by AA during sweep i/sea pilot aban a/c but was k/d 22-5-44
RB169 hit by allied AA 23-12-44
RB175 hit by AA 28-5-44
RB176 . . . Nov,,endur trls and Griffon dev with ETP (7.9 and 19lbs eng boost with target of plus 25lb. Dev declared priority in Jan'45. Piston fail Feb. G65 replaced by G67 in June after 5 hrs fly.
RM619 s/dn nr Aachen pilot aban a/c POW 16-1-45
RM699 hit by AA a/c aban 18-12-44
RM743 air coll with V1 fly bomb cd 26-7-44
RM756 hit by enemy AA Ardennes 23-1-45
RM765 s/dn by Fw190 nr Munster pilot FTR 23-1-45
RM824 hit by AA 24-2-45

So it appears that the Spit XIV only saw action around May of 44 and Jan of 45, right before the invasion and during the Battle of the Bulge. Only 1 was shot down, by a Fw190. However by the same source it seems as though the Spit I and II were decimated by the Bf 109. But by the same token I would expect to see more Spit V s/dn by 190s but there are very few. I do see a number of Mk V with 'Basta' mods.

So unless I'm missing something, it seems the XIV saw very limited service and only in time of need. Perhaps someone that can decipher these abreviations better may provide a clearer picture. . . .

milian · « **Reply #124 on:** September 27, 2005, 02:10:04 AM »

ah, found the page with the abbreviation descriptions . . .

MV258   25-03-45   403   FTR ops
MV314   06-07-45   414   FTR ops
NH686   20-04-45    350   FTR ops
NH711   23-01-45    350   FTR ops
NH719   10-12-44    610   FTR ops
NH813   24-04-45   414   FTR ops
NH835   03-05-45   402   FTR ops
RB140   30-10-44   610   CE ops
RB141   03-05-44   322   FTR ops
RB150   30-08-44   610   FTR ops
RB154   25-12-44   610   eng fire
RB167   26-01-45   310   FTR ops
RB185   05-04-45   350   FTR ops
RB185   05-04-45   350   FTR ops
RB187   29-04-44    91   FTR patrol i/sea
RM618   24-04-44    350   FTR ops
RM619   16-01-45   350   s/dn nr Aachen pilot aban a/c POW
RM620   10-12-44    350   e/a CB
RM672   25-10-44    350   cancel AST 16-1-45 BAF 25-6-47 cd 5-8-53
RM673   25-12-44    350   FTR ops
RM677   14-02-45   610   FTR ops
RM690   24-12-44    350   hit by enemy AA a/c aban
RM731   18-01-45   610   FTR ops
RM736   18-12-45   610   FTR ops
RM739   26-02-45   350   CE ops
RM744   20-04-45   350   FTR ops
RM750   02-03-45   350   FTR ops
RM760   31-12-44   130   FTR ops
RM762   16-01-45   130   FTR ops
RM765   23-01-45   41   s/dn by Fw190 nr Munster pilot FTR
RM766   19-04-45   130   FTR ops
RM789   22-02-45   41   FTR ops
RM808   08-04-45   130   FTR ops
RM811   22-12-44   2   FTR ops
RM812   18-03-45   2   FTR ops
RM819   13-02-45   412   FTR ops
RM839   21-02-45   402   FTR ops
RM842   10-02-45   41   FTR ops
RM843   16-04-45   402   FTR ops
RM850   01-05-45   430   FTR ops
RM871   13-02-45   2   FTR ops
RM875   20-04-45   402   FTR ops
RM904   11-04-45   402   FTR ops
RM906   25-02-45   402   FTR ops
RN120   11-02-45   610   FTR ops
RN123   02-03-45   41   FTR ops
RN125   26-03-45   2   FTR ops
RN204   19-04-45   402   FTR ops
SM814   19-04-45   350   FTR ops
SM818   05-04-45   130   FTR ops

Squadron - losses
2   4
41   4
91   1
130   5
310   1
322   1
350   13
402   7
403   1
412   1
414   2
430   1
610   8

   49

milian · « **Reply #125 on:** September 27, 2005, 02:19:28 AM »

by date:

RM618   24-04-44    350   FTR ops
RB187   29-04-44    91   FTR patrol i/sea
RB141   03-05-44   322   FTR ops
RB150   30-08-44   610   FTR ops
RM672   25-10-44    350   cancel AST 16-1-45 BAF 25-6-47 cd 5-8-53
RB140   30-10-44   610   CE ops
NH719   10-12-44    610   FTR ops
RM620   10-12-44    350   e/a CB
RM736   18-12-44   610   FTR ops
RM811   22-12-44   2   FTR ops
RM690   24-12-44    350   hit by enemy AA a/c aban
RB154   25-12-44   610   eng fire
RM673   25-12-44    350   FTR ops
RM760   31-12-44   130   FTR ops
RM619   16-01-45   350   s/dn nr Aachen pilot aban a/c POW
RM762   16-01-45   130   FTR ops
RM731   18-01-45   610   FTR ops
NH711   23-01-45    350   FTR ops
RM765   23-01-45   41   s/dn by Fw190 nr Munster pilot FTR
RB167   26-01-45   310   FTR ops
RM842   10-02-45   41   FTR ops
RN120   11-02-45   610   FTR ops
RM819   13-02-45   412   FTR ops
RM871   13-02-45   2   FTR ops
RM677   14-02-45   610   FTR ops
RM839   21-02-45   402   FTR ops
RM789   22-02-45   41   FTR ops
RM906   25-02-45   402   FTR ops
RM739   26-02-45   350   CE ops
RM750   02-03-45   350   FTR ops
RN123   02-03-45   41   FTR ops
RM812   18-03-45   2   FTR ops
MV258   25-03-45   403   FTR ops
RN125   26-03-45   2   FTR ops
RB185   05-04-45   350   FTR ops
RB185   05-04-45   350   FTR ops
SM818   05-04-45   130   FTR ops
RM808   08-04-45   130   FTR ops
RM904   11-04-45   402   FTR ops
RM843   16-04-45   402   FTR ops
RM766   19-04-45   130   FTR ops
RN204   19-04-45   402   FTR ops
SM814   19-04-45   350   FTR ops
NH686   20-04-45    350   FTR ops
RM744   20-04-45   350   FTR ops
RM875   20-04-45   402   FTR ops
NH813   24-04-45   414   FTR ops
RM850   01-05-45   430   FTR ops
NH835   03-05-45   402   FTR ops
MV314   06-07-45   414   FTR ops

it seems that other than the invasion, the Spit XIV didn't see any real action until the Battle of the Bulge. And then it seems that the Belgian Squadron 350, and 610 Squadron, along with 402 and 130, then 2 and 41 squadrons, were really the only ones to see any action.

Of course this list may be incomplete, but I think it gives a fair description of the record.

FTR ops - Failed to return, operations

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #126 on:** September 27, 2005, 03:12:26 AM »

Very interesting findings, Milian! Excel can do wonders to a database, just recently I did a bit work on Mark V and MkIX operations in `42. Well, as much as the MkIX is celebrated being introduced in mid42, in reality it flew only a handful of sorties in that year, MkVs flying the vast majority and the combat effectiveness (kills/sortie, losses/sortie) of the two types don`t differ at all. Moreover, appearantly they couldn`t claim a single Bf 109 during the whole of 1942, it was a bit one sided.

The vast majority of engagements were with FW 190s however. I`d happily send over the XLS if you are interested!

Your findings regarding the MkXIV very much agree what I found. Production was terribly slow, the first Sqn to begin to equip with them in Jan 1944 did not complete the conversion until THREE months passed, and did not see action until May... appearantly their operational use was limited to a few sorties in May-June, then they went shooting target drones on high boost, reverting to normal boost in September and transferring to the continent, where appearantly they again saw little action until the Ardennes offensive, and some action on varying scale in 1945. Alltogether, not much - the vast majority of fighters were still MkIXs in 1945.

And then it seems that the Belgian Squadron 350, and 610 Squadron, along with 402 and 130, then 2 and 41 squadrons, were really the only ones to see any action.

Well, considering you have listed practically all RAF Sqns in WW2 that received MkXIVs...

Yep, a mere 6 Sqns, plus one recce unit with a mixed Allison Mustang/FRXIV combo.

I wonder if you have similiar info on MkIX production (ie. per month/delivered)? I suppose that would be equally interesting.

Angus · « **Reply #127 on:** September 27, 2005, 03:31:07 AM »

Ehhhh, this one:
"Moreover, appearantly they couldn`t claim a single Bf 109 during the whole of 1942, it was a bit one sided. The vast majority of engagements were with FW 190s however. I`d happily send over the XLS if you are interested!"

I'll have a lookie into the bookies. I rather doubt that this stands.
Oddly enough, the last I read up were all 190's though.

Crumpp · « **Reply #128 on:** September 27, 2005, 05:50:38 AM »

Quote

But by the same token I would expect to see more Spit V s/dn by 190s but there are very few.

There really were not many FW190's to down Spit's in 1942-43.

Luftflotte 2 was withdrawn for Barbarossa leaving only JG2 and JG26 in Luftflotte 3.

100% strength of an FW190 Jadgeschwader was 154 aircraft. At any given roughly 50% to 60% are servicable.

It is during this time that both JG26 and JG2 flew the FW190 almost exclusively.

Any numbers on RAF Fighter Commands and the AAF's strengths at this time to compare?

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #129 on:** September 27, 2005, 05:46:40 PM »

Just dipped into an autobiography of a Spit IX pilot flying in 1942.
Most of the combat accounts were with 190's. There were much less with 109's!
I only had to read for about a minute to find a claim on a 109 though. Well, for Kuffie's sake, wonder where the claim of no 109's being downed by the IX in 1942 comed. LW definitions from the time maybe, - took them a while to figure out which was which, - the nine or the five. Curious.....

Guppy35 · « **Reply #130 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:02:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Very interesting findings, Milian! Excel can do wonders to a database, just recently I did a bit work on Mark V and MkIX operations in `42. Well, as much as the MkIX is celebrated being introduced in mid42, in reality it flew only a handful of sorties in that year, MkVs flying the vast majority and the combat effectiveness (kills/sortie, losses/sortie) of the two types don`t differ at all. Moreover, appearantly they couldn`t claim a single Bf 109 during the whole of 1942, it was a bit one sided. The vast majority of engagements were with FW 190s however. I`d happily send over the XLS if you are interested!

Your findings regarding the MkXIV very much agree what I found. Production was terribly slow, the first Sqn to begin to equip with them in Jan 1944 did not complete the conversion until THREE months passed, and did not see action until May... appearantly their operational use was limited to a few sorties in May-June, then they went shooting target drones on high boost, reverting to normal boost in September and transferring to the continent, where appearantly they again saw little action until the Ardennes offensive, and some action on varying scale in 1945. Alltogether, not much - the vast majority of fighters were still MkIXs in 1945.

And then it seems that the Belgian Squadron 350, and 610 Squadron, along with 402 and 130, then 2 and 41 squadrons, were really the only ones to see any action.

Well, considering you have listed practically all RAF Sqns in WW2 that received MkXIVs... Yep, a mere 6 Sqns, plus one recce unit with a mixed Allison Mustang/FRXIV combo.

I wonder if you have similiar info on MkIX production (ie. per month/delivered)? I suppose that would be equally interesting.

Is there some sort of point you are trying to make? A handful of sorties. Define handful? In essense the Spit IX doesn't count until when in your mind?

As for the XIV. We're back to a handful of sorties before D-Day then chasing target drones. Kinda like 109s chasing target drones over Germany? Last I checked the V-1 threat was a fairly serious one and needed to be dealt with.

The logbook I have of a Spit pilot includes his time with both 41 and 91 squadrons from March of 43 until August of 44. During that time he had 185 Operational hours on Spit XIIs and 142 operational hours on Spit XIVs. His Spit XIV time was from March to August 44 with 91 Squadron. So he had a lot more hours on Ops in a shorter time while flying the XIV then he did in the XII and the XII was flying on constant Ops from the time he joined 41 until he joined 91 in February of 44.

Then the message was the saw little action once on the continent. Why is that? The LFIXs and XVIs were all flying ground attack? Why is that? Only 6 squadrons of XIVs. Of course there were Tiffies, Mustangs, Jugs, P38s, Tempests, Spit IX/XVIs too.

How many 109 squadrons on the western front opposing them ? Not those chasing 'target drones" over Germany. How many fighting the 2 TAF and 9th AF fighter bombers supporting the ground operations? Is it safe to say that the LW could only manage a handful of meaningful sorties?

Now I know I' ve been more tired and cranky lately, and I know the 109 won the war, but let's keep this in perspective just a bit ok?

Angus · « **Reply #131 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:46:09 PM »

Tsk Tsk - Guppy, you know this was a futile attempt from penny pockets of aircraft running on 87 oct fuel when they had some, - not as if they had any range to cross the channel anyway

Crumpp · « **Reply #132 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:58:38 PM »

The only Technical Order Wright Patterson has that deals with fuel is:

T.O. 02-1-38 Specified and Alternate Grade Fuel for Aircraft-Engine Combinations (2 Oct 1944, rev. 10 Feb 1945, rev. 20 May 1945)

All USAF fighter aircraft are listed with 130 grade fuel recommended, or alternate grade 91/96. No provision is listed for use of alternate 100/150 grade fuel.

It appears that 100/150 grades use was discussed by the 8th AF. Operational trials were conducted as well. However it does not appear to have entered general use.

I am checking on some other archives to confirm.

All the best,

Crumpp

Widewing · « **Reply #133 on:** September 27, 2005, 08:42:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
The only Technical Order Wright Patterson has that deals with fuel is:

T.O. 02-1-38 Specified and Alternate Grade Fuel for Aircraft-Engine Combinations (2 Oct 1944, rev. 10 Feb 1945, rev. 20 May 1945)

Have you read this?

P-51 testing with 100/150 avgas

My regards,

Widewing

Crumpp · « **Reply #134 on:** September 27, 2005, 09:05:28 PM »

Yes I have Widewing. The confusion in this issue has not been over operations at high speed. The fuel worked fine at high manifold pressures. Problems occur at cruising speeds.

Quote

Operational trials were conducted as well.

This is not correct. I should have written it entered operation for a few weeks but was withdrawn from general use.

All the best,

Crumpp