Author Topic: RAF 150 octane  (Read 11411 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2005, 04:32:26 AM »
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Specially modified P-47 Thunderbolts (P-47Ms) with half their fuel tanks, half their 0.5 in (12.7 mm) machine guns, all external fittings and all their armour plate removed were also pressed into service against the V-1 menace. There was no need for radar — at night the V-1's engine could be seen from 16 km (10 miles) or more away.


The P-47M did not show up in the ETO til Jan 1945. The only user was the 56thFG which was a day-fighter unit of the 8thAF. The last V-1s were air launched against England from He111s on Jan 13 1945 the night before the 56th flew its 1st mission with the P-47M.

Offline J_A_B

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2005, 04:33:07 AM »
"Something else that I find curious is the total silence amongst the P-51 fans. Since the VIIIth AF Fighter Command did use the 150 fuel as well, I would have thought there would have been some posts on it. I have seen very little discussed on the subject however."

As far as AH is concerned, we know we aren't going to get it anyway.  The current P-51's fit in pretty well with most of the plane set so it isn't much of an issue.



J_A_B

Offline Angus

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2005, 06:00:40 AM »
The RAF P51C's were from some reason not boosted up at the same time as the Spit XIV was along with the Tempest able (with extra boost?) to catch the V-1 in level flight.
BTW if I dig a little I can find an account of a Mossie catching those doodlebugs at night. Karnak? Interested???
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Neil Stirling1

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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2005, 07:35:16 AM »
Crump I have made contact with Dr Brett Stolle of the USAF Museum.

Neil.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2005, 07:49:37 AM »
"The Tempest wing was built up to over 100 aircraft by September"

I figured it was @100, but have not seen a quote for it. Thx.

As far as the issue of 150 octane goes, and has been pointed out, there was a difference between ADGB units (Fighter Command), and RAF 2nd TAF. Both commands used the stuff at different periods.

To say that the RAF only used it to chase V-1s in "Crossbow" is simply not correct, nor was it the sole purpose of its issue during the war.

"As far as AH is concerned, we know we aren't going to get it anyway"

Dont say we didnt ask though JAB ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 07:57:27 AM by Squire »
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Offline Neil Stirling1

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2005, 08:19:28 AM »
Angus, as of August 1944 there were 4 Mustang III sqns operating with 150 grade fuel and +25lbs boost and not just intercepting V1's, for example on the 14th of August 1944 306 sqn claimed 3 Bf 109's and 1 Fw 190.

Neil

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2005, 08:21:53 AM »
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Crump I have made contact with Dr Brett Stolle of the USAF Museum.


OK!


Quote
Numerous RAF Mustang IIIs were diverted to the interception of V-1 "buzz-bombs". Some of them were "souped up" by using a special high-octane fuel and internal engine adjustments in order to increase the intake manifold pressure and made it possible to achieve a speed of 420 mph at 2000 feet. Since the typical V-1 flew at 370 mph, this made the "souped-up" Mustang very useful against these weapons.


http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_9.html

The 306th Squadron did have elements included in V1 operations. It does not mean that the 100/150 grade converted Mustangs were used on the escort missions.  Look at the 56th FG and their P47M’s.  Although they received the aircraft in Jan ’44, no operational missions were flown with them until the final days of the war.  They flew their P47D’s on operations until the problems with P47M’s and their fuel were worked out.

Breakdown of the 306th:

http://www.rafcommands.currantbun.com/Fighter/306F.html

It is a fact that 100/150 grade fuel quickly destroyed the valve seats in the V-1650 motors causing a loss of power.

This was corrected after the trials at Wright Patterson shortly before the war ended.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 09:55:31 AM by Crumpp »

Offline Karnak

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2005, 10:34:46 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
BTW if I dig a little I can find an account of a Mossie catching those doodlebugs at night. Karnak? Interested???

I'd like to hear it, yes thanks.  I am currently fighting off the urge to start buying more Mossie books.  I really should avoid that as it can be an expensive habit, but I really like the aircraft.
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Offline Neil Stirling1

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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2005, 10:46:15 AM »
Crump

I recieved a reply from Brent Stolle this afternoon.

Neil

 

I do not remember that inquiry about Operation Diver.  If you are in contact with Crump ask him the date of my letter/email of reply.  It will help me find out what sources I used.  As I do not recall the inquiry it is likely the information credited to me was snipped by me from some other source/report.  I handle thousands of inquiries yearly and this one does not appear to be in my saved file.  

 

We do not maintain performance tables for the Republic P-47 in our museum collection.  I suggest you contact the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum for this information, if available.  

 

I look forward to your reply.  Have a great day!

 

Brett Stolle

NMUSAF/MUA


Neil.

Offline TimRas

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2005, 11:10:36 AM »
from Roger Freemans' MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR MANUAL.

All 8th AF tactical aircraft operated on special high octane fuel rated on a perfomance number scale as 100/130. The use of an inferior anti-knock fuel in high performance engines would have resulted in overheating, detonation and pre-ignition, all causing engine damage. While 8th AF bombers were fuelled with 100/130 throughout hostilities, early in 1944, there was interest in the possible use of 100/150 fuel which would permit the use of highter war emergency power in fighters. In March, selected fighter squadrons tested this new grade, the results indicating that while the fuel permitted more power to be drawn from engines, it caused increased maintenance, primarily through persistent spark plug fouling. Despite reservations in some quarters, all 8th AF fighter groups went over to 100/150 fuel between July and late September 1944. Attempts to reduce plug fouling by decreasing valve setting and adjustment of carburettor enrichment valves did not appear to help matters. During the autumn there was an alarming increase in the number of P-51 take-off crashes due to engine failure, mostly attributed to the use of the 'Purple Passion' fuel.
Wright Field recommended the addition of ethylene dibromide fluid with 100/150 to prevent fouling problems and in December 1944 the 355th Group was given the task of testing this grade, known as 'Pep.' By mid-January the trial was satisfactorily completed by British agencies were not so enthusiastic, their tests indicated that the additive in the fuel caused engine damage. On 8 February 1945 technical Services reviewed the 355th Group experience, nothing that no chamber corrosion or valve distortion had been found and that no field maintenance on valves had been necessary. Further the use of 'Pep" had appreciably reduced engine maintenance time because plug fouling was practically eliminated. Other gains noticed were reduction to a minimum of abortive sorties due to engine roughness, increased range, and less brake wear as the P-51s were able to taxi at lower rpm. It was felt that any extra wear on the valves or other engine parts was due to the use of higher power and not the 'Pep' fuel. As a result, 'Pep" 100/150 was being supplied to all fighter groups by March.

Mustang performance tests with increased boost:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html

Offline Neil Stirling1

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2005, 11:12:29 AM »
British experience from September 1944 when using 150 grade and +25lbs boost.


http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/Summary.jpg


http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/Summary+2.jpg


Neil.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2005, 11:43:51 AM »
Well it would seem by that source that despite the problems with the engines the 8th AF Fighter Command P-51s used it widely for escort missions.

Im not advocating anything, just interesting history, thats all.
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Offline TimRas

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2005, 01:44:47 PM »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2005, 04:04:31 PM »
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As a result, 'Pep" 100/150 was being supplied to all fighter groups by March 1945.



That is the timeframe I have on 100/150 grade beginning to see general service.  Not in the summer of 1944.

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I do not remember that inquiry about Operation Diver. If you are in contact with Crump ask him the date of my letter/email of reply. It will help me find out what sources I used. As I do not recall the inquiry it is likely the information credited to me was snipped by me from some other source/report. I handle thousands of inquiries yearly and this one does not appear to be in my saved file.


I spoke with Dr Stolle as well on the phone and reminded him of the conversation.  It was not an email but rather in person just before we went to lunch several years ago.  He does not know me as Crumpp, BTW.  I don't know what the P47 has to do with anything either.

Hey Timras!  That is exactly where I am getting my information.  If we look, "Pep" was approved by March 1945

Lets include the next paragraph from page 218:

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As a result, “Pep” 100/150 was being supplied to all fighter groups by March. However, contrary to Technical Services findings, fighter groups reported that while sparking plug life was prolonged, valve adjustment had simultaneously become a problem, checks having to be made every third or fourth mission instead of the usual 50 hours. Opinions differed but the most likely reason was thought to be valve seat inserts burning out leading to diminishing valve clearance and loss of power. Enthusiasm for the new fuel waned quickly and in the same month some units requested a return to 100/130. As the old grade had been largely replaced by 100/150, supply was difficult. By April the position with “Pep” was so critical that a valve check was advised after every 25 hours of flight. In the middle of that month a message to Wright Field requested valve seat inserts on V-1650 engines be made of stelite or other suitable material with corrosion resistant properties. It was found that there was additive separation when fed to the engine, forming hydrobromic acid which attacked the valve seats. In May the British had made a decision to supply 100/150 containing less ethylene dibromide as additional spark plug maintenance was preferred to short engine life, a decision with which the 8th Air Force concurred.


I would say this a large gray area.  

In summary the 8th USAAF appears to have used it for short periods of time  but kept having technical difficulties.

They most certainly intended to change over completely.

First difficulty is the plugs fouling and lead deposits which they solved.  The solution however turned out to be another problem.

Obviously, 100/130-grade fuel was used concurrently.  

IIRC the original order dated July 44 directed that all stocks of 100/130-grade are to be used up before the conversion to 100/150 grade. The intention was to phase it out of the supply system.  

When the units did use up there stocks and converted to 100/150 grade unforseen problems occurred a shortage of 100/130-grade occurred on the switchback.

Make sense?


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 04:24:46 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Squire

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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2005, 11:08:41 PM »
Well, the article seems to indicate they used it and worked through the maintenance problems, but more references would be helpfull.

Also I will point out that combat fighters were not built to last, they were run hard in all air forces during the war, and that maintenance problems of all kinds were commonplace with many varients. Look at the Me 262s engines for instance.
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