Vapor trails would be cool

[frank3]

Originally posted by tactic
Fighters having vapor trails off wings etc

That actually isn't vapour

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by frank3
That actually isn't vapour

Actually that's exactly what it is.

The wings of an airplane cause a drop in air pressure in the vicinity of the wing (this is partly what allows a plane to fly). This drop in air pressure brings with it a drop in temperature, which can cause water to condense out of the air and form a contrail.

The do not last as long as contrails from engine exhaust because the drop in temperature is not as extreme.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

No they absolutely do not. They are as close to the real thing as you can get without actually getting into a REAL plane.

Really Morpheus? How come AHFilm looks so different compared to real guncams then?

I've never seen a plane in AH 'slide' from kinetic forces like witnessed in real world guncams.

So what you're basically saying is that HT modeled every fighter plane with precision to the point with nothing left to be added?

Untill the next version and the new improved FM.

Don't be overly harsh on the subject Morph.

[Morpheus]

Im not at all, and the the planes DO have slip to them. The film viewer is difficult to see any slip even by using the "trail". Also it is difficult to judge how much slip there is because you cant actually feel it like you can in a real plane.

To say anything such as game that tries to simulate something as complex as flight is perfect would in fact be imposible. There are far too many variables. Although hitech does come very close.

I dont think I am be harsh at all. I think your statement is though. Back in Ace High 1 they were on rails. If you flew then, you should know there is a big difference in how they fly in cirtain situations.

Simply saying they're on rails... What would you like the planes to do? Pull 360 degree flat spins while still maintaining forward movement? Not going to happen.

[Morpheus]

If you compare real guncam video to AH video the first thing you'll notice is how real planes first change AOA and then start turning as the aerodynamic forces overcome the kinetic energy. In AH we don't have such an effect as far as I see it, the planes fly 'on rails'.

Would you post some films that show this?

Not in this thread though please because its already on its way to being hijacked.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

By rails I meant that the planes seem to follow changes in AOA very quickly. In AH film this can be witnessed well when the film maker had a spiky stick. The stick spikes create sharp changes in AOA and the plane seems to bounce very sharply after them when in real life I assume nothing else except slight changes in AOA and drag would occur from them.

I think that it's a gameplay concession - if the movements would be modeled authentically it would make gunnery much harder. The nose would bounce more than it does now as a result of stick movement.

Test some extreme low speed, low alt flying offline. Fly at stall limit and make a hard pull on the stick.

You'll notice that the AOA hardly changes at all, what you quickly bounce up and get a quick snap stall. My assumption is that a real plane would behave differently in the given scenario. The AOA would change violently droping the tail, stalling the wing, dragging the speed violently down and sending the plane to the ground in an unrecoverable spin.

In AH currently it's quite easy to go to stall speed, pull very hard on stick at stall speed and regain control with either increasing to full power or pushing stick slight forward to gain the speed back.

I made a small film offline where I flew at stall speed yanking the stick hard back, almost 90 degree angle to the ground at extremely low altitude. See it from external view and you'll notice how sharply the plane follows stick input with 90mph speed, full power. And then tell me I'd be able to do that in a real plane.

http://users.kymp.net/p404508a/film220.ahf

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
By rails I meant that the planes seem to follow changes in AOA very quickly. In AH film this can be witnessed well when the film maker had a spiky stick. The stick spikes create sharp changes in AOA and the plane seems to bounce very sharply after them when in real life I assume nothing else except slight changes in AOA and drag would occur from them.

I think that it's a gameplay concession - if the movements would be modeled authentically it would make gunnery much harder. The nose would bounce more than it does now as a result of stick movement.

Test some extreme low speed, low alt flying offline. Fly at stall limit and make a hard pull on the stick.

You'll notice that the AOA hardly changes at all, what you quickly bounce up and get a quick snap stall. My assumption is that a real plane would behave differently in the given scenario. The AOA would change violently droping the tail, stalling the wing, dragging the speed violently down and sending the plane to the ground in an unrecoverable spin.

In AH currently it's quite easy to go to stall speed, pull very hard on stick at stall speed and regain control with either increasing to full power or pushing stick slight forward to gain the speed back.

 

It is very simple (for the most part) to recover from the kinds of stalls youre talking about in real life. And yes for the most part the planes in real life do act in a similar way. Regaining control of a stall is to simply restore lift over the wing that is no longer creating it. In the situation your talking about. I assume you know how to get out of that kind of stall because you made mention how easy it was to recover from.

In a real plane you use the same basic stick inputs to regain controled flight as you do in game. The reason i know this is because when i first did a low speed stall in real life (which felt just like aces high as far as stick inputs), you do almost exactly what you're talkinga bout, which is bring the stick all the way back the nose will come up and roll over as the wing dips, stick forward, rudder, ailiron and your flying again.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

You asked for an example, would you think this  would have happened with AH2 FM in real life?

[Brooke]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
By rails I meant that the planes seem to follow changes in AOA very quickly.

I agree with Morpheus:  I believe the behavior in AH to be correct and fully realistic.  This is easy to observe in various ways.  One is to go dive at the ground and pull out.  Notice that the line of your flight is below where your nose is actually pointing (i.e., that there is substantial angle of attack).  Another is to follow, say, a bomber around -- weave around, get on its tail, porpoise around a bit and look at what happens.  Notice that your line of flight is not the same as where your nose is pointing (not by a lot).  A third is to do some of this with view zoom turned up, and you will notice it even more because any angle of attack effect is visually magnified.

The only area I've where AH might not be fully realistic (by my observation -- not stating that I am right about this or that I have tested anything quantitatively) is in lack of drastically increased drag when your plane enters the buffet region as is approaches stall (not the buffet region before compressibility).  Real planes generate more drag as you pull more g's.  So does AH.  Real planes stall when airflow completely separates off the top of the wing.  So do planes in AH.  However, flow separating off the top of the wings vs. angle of attack is a graded process -- it doesn't go from smooth flow over the wings to completely separated in a bimodal process.  There is a graded region in between where airflow separates more and more (related to the ability to have a stall horn that kicks in a little, then a little more, and so on until it is finally full on and you are in a full stall).  In that region (where the stall horn is on a little and the airplane isn't fully stalled yet), drag goes up even more than normal because the partial separation of airflow over the top of the wing generates turbulence off the top of the wing that greatly increases drag.  If it worked this way in AH, people wouldn't want to fly the edge with the stall horn blaring to get maximum turn rate -- they'd want to fly just outside the stall horn making any noise, as that would be max lift/drag.  Also, pulling right up to stall would perhaps slow you down faster than it does now in AH.

Other than this small, less-relevant, essoteric region of performance, I belive AH flight models are very realistic and good.  They do a great job, I think.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I'm not saying it sucks, I'm just saying that there might be a gameplay concession here and there making this game easyer for beginners and the air combat in general more enjoyable.

If people would have the ability to enter irrecoverable spins easyer there'd be a monstrous amount of whines and the combat part difficulty would increase exponentially.

Currently it's extremely hard to do anything in an AH plane that would send you to an irrecoverable spin even if you're at 40ft high. You really have to try to achieve it. Take Spit XIV, fly it 100ft off the ground at 220mph. Pull full stick deflection to back and watch it snap-stall nice rounds going forward. At any time you wish you just release the stick and have ability to continue normal flight as if nothing happened.

I'm betting that nobody could try that real life and live to tell about it.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You asked for an example, would you think this  would have happened with AH2 FM in real life?

I dont have real media and im not going to install it. The bottom line is i've seen and been in and flown a plane that is stalling in real life, exactly as you described it in AH. The stalls, how they react, and what you do to get out of one is all very similar to one another. Can you completely model what its like in real life? Well, duh... No that's why they call it a simulation. It will never be perfect. I already said that. Actual flying is far too dynamic and complex with many variables to perfectly mirror on a computer. In theory, with mathematics you can get close. Which is what hitech did. I am really amazed actually how close it is to the real thing.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I'm not saying it sucks, I'm just saying that there might be a gameplay concession here and there making this game easyer for beginners and the air combat in general more enjoyable.

If people would have the ability to enter irrecoverable spins easyer there'd be a monstrous amount of whines and the combat part difficulty would increase exponentially.

Currently it's extremely hard to do anything in an AH plane that would send you to an irrecoverable spin even if you're at 40ft high. You really have to try to achieve it. Take Spit XIV, fly it 100ft off the ground at 220mph. Pull full stick deflection to back and watch it snap-stall nice rounds going forward. At any time you wish you just release the stick and have ability to continue normal flight as if nothing happened.

I'm betting that nobody could try that real life and live to tell about it.

Are you flying with stall limiter on?

I can go off line right now and put a spit14 into a flat spin that god himself couldnt get out of.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Morph I don't use realplayer either, you can get a free plugin for 'media player classic' search for a 'realplayer alternative' from google.

I don't fly with stall limiter on. With the limiter on you can't make the SpitXIV snap stall at all

Dunno morph show me a film where you enter an unrecoverable stall at say 1000ft alt. Whatever I do I can recover either by pushing stick forward or just by ramming full throttle and stick input. I assume again that ramming full throttle in a SpitXIV at stall would not be a smart idea. AH2 goes back to 'rail mode' instead.

[Brooke]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You asked for an example, would you think this  would have happened with AH2 FM in real life?

I've had things like that happen to me in AH.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Brooke are you saying that you entered a shallow turn, fell below stall speed and couldn't recover by firewalling the throttle and giving a bit of stick input? I can do it 10 out of 10 unless I'm full flaps inverted below stall speed.. i.e. really trying to get into trouble.

I doubt that the pilot in question was pushing the envelope in that airshow.