On June 23 1944 near the Ploesti oilfields Hartmann claimed 4 Mustangs on his first sortie vs the Americans. This action is described on pages 161 - 165. On his 5th mission vs the Americans near Ploesti Hartmann claimed another Mustang and set another on fire (that one most likely didnt make it home either) This engagement ended with Hartmann completely defensive vs 8 Mustangs and is also when he bailed after his 109 ran out of fuel. This action is described on pages 165- 169. He claimed two more Mustangs late in the war over Czechoslovakia while trying to intercept a Russian bombing raid. That action is described on pages 171 - 172.
See my post above. Or just go to Mr. Barbas' site and ask him personally. Mr. Barbas' is writing the history of JG52 and has attended everyone one of JG52s yearly reunions going back 20 years.
Also Hartmann's claims can be found on Tony Wood's site (if the bandwidth problems are ever figured out). Mr. Woods data comes from actual LW records. You can also find a list of 'Hartmann' claims on the Kacha's web page(see link I provided). You can also email the web master there for more info.
Researcher and author Jean-Yves Lorant has researched Hartmann's claims as well and he states that Hartmann only claimed 1 Mustang on 24.6.44. He goes on to say:
If you find informations about four Mustang on that day, it's simply false. His next kill was on 27 june 1944 was a Lavochkin La-5 !
Mr. Lorant posts on several LW forums and you should have no trouble tracking him down and asking him for more info.
Using Toliver/Constable's book as a source is pointless. Not only does it contain incorrect information for the time, new information and research since their book was published has has come to light.
There may be some errors, after all even the authors are human and we all know that all humans make mistakes from time to time, yet I doubt that it is *full of errors* since the authors told the story as it was told to them by Hartmann himself.
Hartmann didn't dictate the book to them. They wrote it, and yes 'full of errors' is accurate.
Contact the above researchers if you don't believe me.
His final kill total is known imo, 352.
Hartmann, like many other pilots, has a number of 'unconfirmed claims' as well as 'confirmedl claims' that are 'questionable'. Hartmann has stated that on many occasions he didn't wait around to watch the enemy aircraft hit the ground or for the pilot to bale out. Many of his kill claims were deep over enemy territory and couldn't be observed from the ground nor could the wreckage be observed. Hartmann was no super man.
Since researchers have only been able to review his first log book they are only in position to validate the first 150 or so. Even then as as I said above there was no real effort made in correctly ID'ing the specific plane type. That's why you see so many 'LaGG' claims. Without his second log book verifying his exact total number of kills / claims is impossible. It could be lower or higher for that matter.
To many times folks try to discredit those who have achieved amazing things, sometimes they have good reason to, other times they only attempt to discredit because they themselves cannot fathom how such feats were accomplished.
That's here nor there. Good researchers are always 'skeptics'. They arrive at conclusions based on established facts and evidence. The simple fact is there is no evidence to support 5 -7 (depending on who or what you read) Mustangs shot down by Hartmann. The evidence only shows 2*.
This does nothing to discredit Hartmann as a person. What does it matter if he only had 250 kills or if his true total was higher then 352 (it quite possibly could be)? This kind thing only really matters to the fact checkers and number geeks.
*fyi
03.45 Hartman is credited with 1 P-51 (Stab I./JG 52 was operating from the following airfields in March 1945: Weidengut (1.-16.3.45), Chrudim (16.-27.3.45), Raschdorf (27.-29.3.45) and Raudnitz (29.3.-17.4.45)) according to Barbas/Rajlich (on Kacha´s web page linked above).
According to Toliver/Constable Hartmann attacked a P-51 formation in '45 with his wingman that was above a Soviet Yak / P-39 formation (around 25 e/a) that was covering a formation of around 30 Bostons / Pe-2s.
Again according to Toliver/Constable, Hartmann claimed 2 P-51s shot down (smoking, but did not observe them crash) and then proceeded through the Soviet fighters to hit a Boston (Hartmann was not sure if it went either). According to Barbas/Rajlich (see the link Kacha's web page) Hartmann only claimed and / or was credited 1 of these P-51s (no. 347). The first P-51 may have been no. 346, but Barbas/Rajlich list it as just an e/a. As its been established JG52 made no extra effort in correctly ID'ing then aircraft thet made claims against. This 'e/a' could very well have been a Soviet fighter.
The second Rotte of JG 52 shot down one further P-51 (pilot baled out). JG 52 then escaped while the Soviet and USAAF fighters apparently engaged each other (Hartmann observed 3 Yaks going down burning and 1 P-51 with a glycol leak but I haven't found any confirmation of this).
Barbas/Rajlich (see the link to Kacha's web page) have one Boston / B-25 claim on 1 or 2.45 (No. 335) and one B-26 (according to Toliver/Constable a B-25) on 10.4.45 (No. 346).
That's only 2 P-51s for Hartmann and possibly a third...
You can rely solely on Toliver/Constable if you choose but a lot folks have researched Hartmann. I listed 3 that you can contact for yourself.
Anyway this thread is way o/t. Folks have spent much more time researching Hartmann then either of us and even they arrive at different conclusions. I doubt anything will get solved by pro-longing this thread.
