Author Topic: What a Crock!  (Read 1323 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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What a Crock!
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2005, 02:49:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Not exactly. He's working there so he can live there.

Were he to no longer be employed by the university, he would no longer be subject to their policies. The burden is his, he can choose to hold his group thing off campus where he is not subject to the school's policy regarding R.A.s, or he can quit and again, not be subject to the school's policy. It's his choice.

His freedom of religion is not being touched, it's his ability to hold a group discussion on religion while assuming the position as a school representative that is being stopped.
-SW


Again this isn't a school policy it was a statement made at a meeting.  and I would say he lives there so he can go to school there not so he can work there.  In exchange for his services the school provides him a room and board.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2005, 02:56:27 PM »
Essentially state employees
The university forbids resident assistants from hosting religious or political activities in the dorms where they work to ensure that R.A.'s are accessible to all students, said spokesman Mike Rindo. Resident assistants are essentially state employees.


The school does not allow it, whether it was said at a meeting or not. Although I can't find where they said this in a meeting.

And then this:
The university's position is backed by a similar written policy at the University of Wisconsin-Madison

He can live off campus and still go to school. Clearly he is working there so he can live there.
-SW

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2005, 03:01:23 PM »
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"I work for the school. It's my job, but I do have personal time. I should be able to talk about whatever I want to talk about in my own room. It's my home. It's where I live."

"Unless they're on the clock 168 hours a week, which they're not, they have dual capacity as do all state employees," said David French, president of the foundation. "They have private lives. . . . We're not talking about Bible studies as part of an official R.A. function. We're talking about on their own time a function that is completely optional."

The school's policy, which also applies to political and ideological activities, is communicated to new resident assistants during a verbal orientation and is not in writing, Rindo said.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2005, 03:04:23 PM »
It is a policy, it says it right there. It doesn't have to be in writing to be a policy. They communicated the policy and the person accepts it when they accept the position.
-SW

Offline BluKitty

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What a Crock!
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2005, 03:16:20 PM »
reaaal simple fix for the RA ... stop being a RA....

take out a loan, join the debt generation.

_____________________________ _

another point........If this person is really doing thier own thing on thier own time ... how did the school even find out about it...

 flyers? what?  how is it that anyone even knows if it's not a leadship role the RA took?  Seems like the RA must have advertised the meeting in some manner.  Missed the details if that was written.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2005, 03:24:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
reaaal simple fix for the RA ... stop being a RA....

take out a loan, join the debt generation.

_____________________________ _

another point........If this person is really doing thier own thing on thier own time ... how did the school even find out about it...

 flyers? what?  how is it that anyone even knows if it's not a leadship role the RA took?  Seems like the RA must have advertised the meeting in some manner.  Missed the details if that was written.


sure it could have been a flyer but all it takes is one person to complain before somones civil rights get trampled on in the name of political correctness.  I don't think it's right to make the RA quite, as long as he can do his job there shouldn't be any reason he couldn't practice his religion in peace.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2005, 03:33:41 PM »

Offline BluKitty

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« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2005, 03:34:37 PM »
what about the rights of the others who live in the dorm not to be subjected to a "crazy bible thumping RA" as they might see it.  Private practise, practise away from THAT dorm, whatever... the point is about the other students civil rights too.  

You don't have to agree with that point .. I don't know if I do... but they have civil rights too, the other dorm students.  

Another resident posting flyers is one thing ... your RA is something else.   Are residents required to read postings by RA's?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2005, 03:48:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
what about the rights of the others who live in the dorm not to be subjected to a "crazy bible thumping RA" as they might see it.  Private practise, practise away from THAT dorm, whatever... the point is about the other students civil rights too.  

You don't have to agree with that point .. I don't know if I do... but they have civil rights too, the other dorm students.  

Another resident posting flyers is one thing ... your RA is something else.   Are residents required to read postings by RA's?


who say's they're being subjected?  You have a nice view of Christians there BTW.  "crazy bible thumping"  Do you stereotype all cultures religions races and creeds or just the ones that you don't like.

As far as the other students I fail to see how their rights are being infringed apon.

Offline RightF00T

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« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2005, 03:55:10 PM »
If I were a student with any dissenting beliefs/practices, I would feel uncomfortable approaching this guy for every day problems.  As a (let's say Muslim) student with a roommate disagreement, how akward would it be to need your RA to handle a dispute and find him and many others hunched around  bibles, speaking the written word.  Kind of brings on a feeling of alienation, I would say.  It is important for someone in that stature to be as unbiased as possible.  I'm not saying the guy would side with those of the Christian faith every time, and I'm not suggesting that he remove his beliefs for the sake of a job.  It would just be in the best interest of his dorm-mates if he catered to everyone as well.  I hope most of what I'm saying makes some kind of sense.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2005, 04:01:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RightF00T
If I were a student with any dissenting beliefs/practices, I would feel uncomfortable approaching this guy for every day problems.  As a (let's say Muslim) student with a roommate disagreement, how akward would it be to need your RA to handle a dispute and find him and many others hunched around  bibles, speaking the written word.  Kind of brings on a feeling of alienation, I would say.  It is important for someone in that stature to be as unbiased as possible.  I'm not saying the guy would side with those of the Christian faith every time, and I'm not suggesting that he remove his beliefs for the sake of a job.  It would just be in the best interest of his dorm-mates if he catered to everyone as well.  I hope most of what I'm saying makes some kind of sense.


in otherwords christians need not apply because we "offend people"  Seriously I can't beleive what I'm reading.  It's not like somone's going to interupt human sacrifice night, were talking a biblical study group.  If somone is offended by that then they are entirly too sensative.  I mean seriously I though we were preparing people for the real world and such.  I though in America we didn't discriminate based on sex creed race religion or sexual preference.  Isn't that what we are talking about here?  Saying this guy can't peacfully practice his religion because it MIGHT offend somone or it MIGHT do this or the aclu MIGHT sue them or it MIGHT look bad.  I'd love to see the muslims reaction if the college said no Koran studies.

So if gayness and gay people offend me an RA could not be gay, because we wouldn't want him unapproachable by a student now would we?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 04:05:35 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2005, 04:12:07 PM »
Quote
E-mail from Associate Director of Housing and Residence Life Deborah Newman to Lance Steiger, September 22, 2005
From: Newman, Deborah L.
Sent: Thu 9/22/2005 10:38 AM
To: Steiger, Lance Lee
Cc: [REDACTED]
Subject: RE: Question for you


I would prefer that RAs not lead Bible studies in the hall in general, and here is the reason.  As a state employee, you and I have a responsibility to make sure we are providing an environment that does not put undue pressure on any member of our halls in terms of religion, political parties, etc.  As an RA you need to be available to your residents both in reality and from their perspective.  As a "leader" of a Bible study, one of the roles is to gather and encourage people to attend.  These two roles have a strong possibility to conflict in your hall.  I have shared with other RAs who have asked this question, that as an RA we also want you to encourage other students to develop leadership skills, and one of the ways you can do that is to encourage other students in your hall to actually lead the Bible study.  I also want to clarify that you can certainly attend Bible studies in your hall.  I just want to make sure we don't put ourselves in a position where we fail to meet the needs of all of our students, either on purpose or by accident!  Please feel free to come in and speak with me about this if you would like.
 
Deb

Doesn't look like a "policy" has been violated just a "prefference"

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2005, 04:12:57 PM »
You aren't even arguing what is going on.

You are going on and on about this issue thinking he can't worship, or he can't be Christian. He can do that, he just can't lead a bible study on campus as a R.A. as it is against school policy.

That's all there is to it, there isn't persecution here that you seem to wish existed.
-SW

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2005, 04:17:46 PM »
For Hopefully rational consideration:


Key question: where does the right of the individual bacome important in an on call governmental job? Everything else hinges on this. Let me break it down.

1) No one would argue that the EMT on call couldnt lead a Sunday School (or the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, or whatever equivalent) when he was technically on call for his duties. In that situation, there is clear physical separation between place of employment (station house) and place of religious activity. Aside from location, the other key difference is CLEAR ABSENCE OF OFFICIAL ENDORSEMENT of the religious activity. However, the illustration effectively negates teh "on-call employee" aspect of the argument.

2) The location argument is two sided.
a. Would the class be a problem in his room any less than in the basement? I think you could effectively argue that a RA's "office" was his room, since that's where the majority of his student interactions would take place. Or, does being a government employee mean that he cannot have any outward hint of religion in his job -- the position that many in this thread think they are espousing. Does that meant that he cannot have a cross on his wall -- since his dorm room is also his office? Does he have to hide his Bible (or Koran, for that matter)? Can he WEAR a cross or a religious T shirt? IN other words, does the fact that he LIVES there mean that his personal practice of religion must be HIDDEN from those he responsible for serving? And, what if his religious beliefs include a command to talk about his faith (which Christianity explicitly does.) Are christians (and others with similar faith sharing beliefs) forbidden from having on cal goivernment posisitons?
b. Courts have been clear that religious organizations must be provided the same access to public facilities as secular ones. If others can hold group meetings of any sort in the dorm meeting room, religious groups must have equal access. The basement location is irrelevant; the issue is whether he indeed is precluded from teaching his fath as long as he holds the job. By this interpretaion of separation, why would it even be OK for him to attend teh thing with people who knew he was RA??

3) So, when does activity by a governent employee amount to even implicit endorsement? Do government employees need to forsake their rights to talk aboiut their faiths, as a condition of employment? Since this guy has potential resposibilities 24/7, and since Christianity teaches that faith should penetrate every part of our lives, are you seriously requiring him to quit?
OR
In the absence of coercisive behavior by the RA, wouldnt a disclaimer -- like radio stations play before controversial talk shows -- completely negate the religious establishment question? Why wouldnt this be ok? Particularly when 2 important civil rights conflict (here the right of individuals to practice their faiths vs the freedom from governement established religion), shouldnt their be openness to solutions which honor both?





Lastly, the procedural issue -- if an employer has a policy, it is completely unenforcable if it isnt written down. Period. The policy needs to have apeeals, rational, interventions all spelled out. This guy should be 100% off the hook, and any employment lawyer who wanted to could eat the university for lunch on this one.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 04:24:33 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2005, 04:18:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You aren't even arguing what is going on.

You are going on and on about this issue thinking he can't worship, or he can't be Christian. He can do that, he just can't lead a bible study on campus as a R.A. as it is against school policy.

That's all there is to it, there isn't persecution here that you seem to wish existed.
-SW


What if that is just as much a part of being a christian to him as it is the study himself?  Why take that away from him and who are we to judge what's right and what's wrong as long as he does his job like he supposed to.  And no I have strayed a little but I am responding to posts in this thread.