How many power the AH FW190D9 have??

[Waffle]

key word "imagine"...


Most fights in ah are under 10k or on top of someones base....


alot of people dont fly their "computer" planes in the zone they 'perform' the best....or in the envioronment that the majority saw usage in ww2, granted there are exceptions to everything.

also alot of factors that people don't seem to comprehend... or dont want to accept....

"NO fluff'n way a hurricane could catch my 190D9!" what they fail to realize is that hurri probably was higher, and had speed to catch a 190d9, especially if the d9 was coming out of a fight... or manuevering.

then you get the typical.."FM porked" comments....

BTW - anyone have stick force data on the 190s and spits?

Curious if it took more muscle to lug a 190 around than it did a spitfire.

[Crumpp]

BTW - anyone have stick force data on the 190s and spits?

Yes I have stick force data on both and the P51D.

There is very little difference between the P51 and Bf-109G for stick force per G except at speeds over 650kph were the P51 has an advantage depending on the CG location.

The FW-190 stick forces are very slight up until around 700kph.  It was a true one handed dogfighter and if anything seems to have forces that were almost too light.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Waffle]

what about the spits?

[Crumpp]

Everything I have says harmonization was poor and forces ran from heavy to very light depending on the axis.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Waffle]

Do you have charts for the 51 / spits? If so, could you post them or email to me?

Thanks,

Waffle

[Crumpp]

Most fights in ah are under 10k or on top of someones base....

Well if the allies were worried abuot the increasing low altitude superiority of Luftwaffe fighters during the war, you would think they would be pretty good in AH.

Your argument is valid if the FM fits the facts of the design.  They do not in AH.  In the FW-190 for example, the model does not reach it's rated speeds, weight issues, flap deployment, engine operation issues, etc...

Not a single FW-190 could lower 5 settings of flap.  It only had three, up, take off, and landing.

That speaks volumes about the knowedge of the design when the FM was made.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Sable]

Originally posted by Crumpp
They do not in AH.  In the FW-190 for example, the model does not reach it's rated speeds, weight issues, flap deployment, engine operation issues, etc...

Just out of curiosity, but what specific evidence are the speed and weight criticism's based on?  I.e. how are you testing, and what evidence are you using to determine it should be different?  I ask because all the speed and climb data I've been able to find for the FW190 matches the performance we see in AH.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Flawwed logic that has no place in determining FM's.

I'm curious where you find this flawed logic.  The fact remains that while 190s and 109s do not "dogfight" well with Spits and other Allied aircraft, they perform quite well in situations constructed to simulate historical accuracy via altitudes, numbers, and tactics.  In those situations, the 109s and 190s perform quite capably versus anything the Allies field.

Which plane would win a dogfight in AH?  A Spit V?  Or a 190A5?  Or a 109F?  I've flown the former against both Luftwaffe types in scenarios and Friday Night Squad Ops, and the 190s/109s eat the Spit V for lunch.  No contest.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Crumpp
While getting into a "dogfight" was not the ideal situation for any pilot of any nationality, facts are they did occur.  Most Luftwaffe Aces were very successful dogfighters when they had to be.   Some like, Krupinski, were noted for their almost suicidal aggressiveness.  Taking on any all-enemy aircraft no matter what the numbers or position.

Dogfighting occurs in scenarios too, just not with the regularity that you find in an MA environment.  Also, note the absurdity of your position.  You're using Luftwaffe aces to make your point about how 109s and 190s should be capable dogfighters?  Even you can see that you're making a spurious relationship between dogfighting combat success and plane type.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Krusty]

I have to add that in a 190a5 I fear no spitV. I fear the spit9 (seeing more use now) and respect the 16 as it's around so much, but I can still fight them. I haven't had much flight time, but I've got about 35+ 190a5 kills, and that comes to about 80% of all my kills, so I've seen quite a few spitties.

The issue is that the spit9 has almost the same top speed as the V but they are chasing me down in my (faster!) 190a5... makes no sense. I don't think the modeling is spot-on for the spits yet, but I chalk this up to "new modeling bugs" and hope it all gets smoothed out in a patch or two. I'm patient enough to wait.

[Glasses]

Well I think you find that regularly those of us that preffer to fly in our virtual LW planes do so with the knowledge that there are certain thing the flight modeling doesn't allow us to do. Therefore some will need to relly on the way they themselves perform and use tactics to counteract the ability other aircraft have.  So of course in the scenario types you'll see the LW perform well, the allied types have much more of the people that believe their aircraft could go sub orbital, travel the milky way, milk a goat,bring starving children in Africa food and still get home in time for supper .  

So when they complain sometimes that LW perform well enough, they have to keep in mind that when they get beaten to  a bunch of confetti,blood and guts(virtually of coruse) it's the dude inside (or on the other side of the screen) that did most of the work .

I'm not gloating about this fact it's the truth, the Leviathan types in the Allied side are few and far in between.

[Mister Fork]

In SDOE, when I made the Dora D-9, I recall setting the HP to ~1770 and the WEP to 2240 but I also had to put in the engine Torque which I had to research long and hard. It had little effect on top speed but it sure impacted how fast it took to get here.  It also had a large impact on take-off and cruising - you had to adjust your trim to ensure it flew straight and level if you changed your engine.  I also recall setting the weight

I also had to search on weight: the armament in the 'D' was lightened compared to that of the earlier Fw aircraft. I'll see if I can dig up my research data.

However, in the end, I had a fast accelerating, amazing aircraft that was nimble compared to earlier variants, yet had the balls to engage any P series American fighter or Spitfire.  While it's corner rate wasn't anything to brag about, it's engine often got it out of trouble in a hurry.

[HoHun]

Hi Knegel,

>i just wonder how much it have, i guess 1750hp (WEP), this would explain the bad behaviour vs the La7 and Spit16, but on the other side then the 190A5 should be the way better dogfighter, or the 190A´s use the BMW801Dg also with max 1750hp.

Have a look at this graph:

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Fw190D-9Analysis.gif

The blue curve is extrapolated from flight tests, combining the drag factor of a Fw 190D-9 tested in a close to finalized configuration with a sub-standard engine with the power curve from a standard engine.

(It's conservative as the substandard engine is assumed to give full power albeit at a lower full throttle height.)

So the blue curve is a pretty realistic estimate of minimum Fw 190D-9 performance with a 2100 PS (MW50 injection) engine without bomb rack.

Curve 4 is the Focke-Wulf estimate for a Fw 190D-9 with a bomb rack. That's quite a bit faster than my extrapolation, but it makes sense as the Focke-Wulf estimate probably includes the engine compartment seal that the aircraft I based the blue curve on didn't have. I believe Naudet could find no documentation on whether this seal was ever fitted to operational aircraft.

(Based on curve 4 and my rendition of it (note slight deviation at low altitude), I have tried to match curve 3 by increasing engine output. I arrived at 2400 HP, but when I posted this curve on this board for the first time, we arrived at the conclusion that the drop in high-level speed compared to curve 4 is not due to higher drag, but rather due to a lower compression. Accordingly, curve 3 is actually achieved at a slightly lower power rating than these 2400 HP.)

Anyway, you could measure the Aces High Dora's speeds at different altitudes and compare it to this graph. That would probably give you a good idea of what power Hitech used for the Dora, and maybe even whether he included the effect of the engine seal or not.

(Note that Naudet by some time-consuming and very thorough reasearch found out that the Dora was really running at 2100 HP maximum, not at the 2240 HP mentioned in many places, including Mister Fork's post - and a  lot of my own :-) I had used the 2240 HP data, too, and it took Naudet quite some effort to convince me I was wrong! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Crumpp]

Also, note the absurdity of your position. You're using Luftwaffe aces to make your point about how 109s and 190s should be capable dogfighters? Even you can see that you're making a spurious relationship between dogfighting combat success and plane type.

Absurdity of my position??

Your claiming:

1.  Luftwaffe fighters were not successful dogfighters and got the majority of their kills by bouncing.  

2.  You can judge the ability of a FM from a scenario

Looking at individuals who had numerous successful dogfights is not even in the same league as trying to determine individual FM accuracy from the results of scenario.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Mime]

Scenarios don't prove anything about a flight model other than very basic flight modeling areas such as greater speed or climb rate.  Pilot skill is also a factor.  I would attribute such success of the LW against Spitfires in scenarios to greater speed and climb rate of the LW birds.  Obviously this allows them to choose and pick the fight and employ energy tactics.  The detailed aspects of the FMs, such as weight, flap deployments,  cockpit modeling. etc can only been evaluated with research and data.  Yeah maybe the LW flight models are loosely correct and give them the things they need to defeat SpitVs in scenarios but I think there are many holes that need to be filled in.