Author Topic: could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)  (Read 6143 times)

Offline Russian

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #270 on: December 20, 2005, 12:28:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Black Sheep
We are well aware of your bias on this subject. But practice what you preach on 'judging standards'.

 
I have accumulated views from both systems since I lived in each side. I have most neutral view, unlike most people here….

Offline Russian

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #271 on: December 20, 2005, 12:33:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Some people like priest, some like priest's daughter.

I have many friends and aquaintances who came back to Russia from the US and regret that they went there.

Could be funny if you have known people who decided to come home from the US.
I can confirm that, not only from my friends, but also from my personal experience. It is extremely difficult to live where everything is foreign. This is not about politics, but about ‘people’.

Offline WMLute

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #272 on: December 20, 2005, 12:46:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Russian
I can confirm that, not only from my friends, but also from my personal experience. It is extremely difficult to live where everything is foreign. This is not about politics, but about ‘people’.


(hate jumpin' in late on these things....)

Just to clarify what you are saying....

It was ok for Mexico to declare it's independance from Spain, but Texas doing the same thing is wrong how?

Texas was it's own country for 10yrs.  
Mexico invaded them.  
Not sure how you can dispute that.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Russian

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #273 on: December 20, 2005, 12:54:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WMLute
(hate jumpin' in late on these things....)

Just to clarify what you are saying....

It was ok for Mexico to declare it's independance from Spain, but Texas doing the same thing is wrong how?

Texas was it's own country for 10yrs.  
Mexico invaded them.  
Not sure how you can dispute that.
I thought I explained my view point in previous posts. I say that it is not OK for illegals to declare independence. If they had citizenship from a country they are declaring independence from, they are welcome to do as they please.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #274 on: December 20, 2005, 02:33:40 PM »
I think the thing that most amazes me is all the commies and socialists here talking about all the "free" stuff they got with socialism/communism

They never got a "free" thing in their lives.... it was all paid for by someone.

Maybe their non productive butt never paid for it but someone did.  

I am not making fun of crapholes because they can't be helped.... I am saying that expecting "free" stuff and thereby lowering the productivity of an entire country is what is creating the craphole.

You can get the same effect of course if your government is corrupt enough and siphons off enough money even under democracy/capitalism.... look at mexico and the other south and central american countries that go from one corrupt regieme to another.

as for soviet hobbies.... Who cares if they don't allow the ones I want?

lazs

Offline Estel

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #275 on: December 20, 2005, 03:34:51 PM »
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Originally posted by mora
Define "working".


Both politicial and economical systems? Hmmm. It will be be not only hard to do, but also hard to understand.... I'll try in the morning. Not now.

Offline moot

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #276 on: December 20, 2005, 10:53:50 PM »
Work under communism is in vain.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Bluedog

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #277 on: December 21, 2005, 01:22:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I think the thing that most amazes me is all the commies and socialists here talking about all the "free" stuff they got with socialism/communism

They never got a "free" thing in their lives.... it was all paid for by someone.

Maybe their non productive butt never paid for it but someone did.  


lazs



Isnt the basic point of both socialism and communism that that 'someone' who paid for their free stuff, was in fact 'everyone', including those receiving the 'free' stuff?

The thing I find amazing is the perceived threat from the West and a need to protect the USSR, or Mother Russia , or the Soviet Union, or whatever you wish to call it.

Protection from what?

If the Soviets never had a nuclear arsenal, do you think the West would have overtaken Russia?
The Nazis sure as hell werent going to, they were a bit thin on the ground in the late forties. Western nations had a fair bit to do with that too.
Would America have invaded Russia? Would Britain or the Commonwealth Nations?
What the hell for?
Where was the threat?

Offline Chairboy

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #278 on: December 21, 2005, 01:34:04 AM »
Well, the fact is that they DID have nukes, a big military, and a stated objective of crushing the west.  Blue sky all you want, the west was reacting to a direct and unsubtle threat.

Also, are you arguing that the person who works super hard deserves to get no more than the person who sits back and does nothing?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Bluedog

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #279 on: December 21, 2005, 01:52:56 AM »
Chairboy, im not arguing anything, just saying that Lazs' 'someone' who was paying for the free stuff was infact everyone, so no one person was copping any more or less of a raw deal than any other person.
And I believe socialism in fact doesnt distribute goods equally to all, but on a basis of what you put in.....ie put in heaps, get heaps out.....put in next to nothing, get next to nothing back.

And the nukes thing is my whole point.........would the West have used nukes to invade russia if russia didnt have any?  I seriously doubt it.
So why the need for Russia to defend herself? Where was the threat.

The nuclear threat from the West was a threat only if Russia attacked.
There was never any danger whatsoever of the West nuking Russia, if Russia stayed at home and lived peacefully.


Im not trying to blue sky anything, I am questioning why Russia felt threatened by the West, when in fact we posed no threat at all.

I whole heartedly agree, the cold war and the arms race was a Western
reaction to Soviet actions, and their stated goal of crushing the west.

A Russian might say that the Soviet nuclear build up was in response to America having a worldwide nuclear capability, what I want to know, is why
did /does Russia consider that a threat?

Do Russian believe that the West would invade and destroy or occupy Russia, if it werent for the threat of nuclear world destruction?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 02:00:11 AM by Bluedog »

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #280 on: December 21, 2005, 01:55:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bluedog
Chairboy, im not arguing anything, just saying that Lazs' 'someone' who was paying for the free stuff was infact everyone, so no one person was copping any more or less of a raw deal than any other person.

Actually, the person who works super hard is getting the raw deal BECAUSE they get the same as the person who does nothing.

Later in your post, you mention a hypothetical where the people who did more work would get more, but that's not socialism.  That's a concept called capitalism, and it has experienced some pretty good success over the past few hundred years.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Bluedog

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« Reply #281 on: December 21, 2005, 02:15:39 AM »
I have to admit, my knowledge of how communism, socialism etc work is pretty much non-existant, so Im not going to argue the point on that on e Chairboy, and dont get me wrong, I'm not saying communism is a good thing. ( or a bad thing for that matter, just not my thing)

Basically all Im saying is that over the years on these boards I've seen several times Russian people talk about the need to protect Russia from the 'evil' West.

The whole thing is, us western democratic nations are all about freedom of choice (not just freedom of speech), so if Russians choose to be communists in Russia, we dont have any problem with that.
It is only when people outside Russia are denied freedom of choice by force of Russian arms that we become even the slightest threat to Russia.

The Russia with a huge armed forces was no safer (from western democratic nations) than a Russia with a bare minimum armed force....we still arent going to attack, the huge armed force was a farce, and used up a whole ****load of funds that could have bought food and fed millions.


The only people who were a threat to Russia after 1930 or so were the Nazi Germans and the Japanese, both of whom the western allies fought to near destruction.
I just dont get why suddenly the western allies were such a threat to Russia, nukes or not.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 02:31:45 AM by Bluedog »

Offline Vad

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #282 on: December 21, 2005, 06:35:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bluedog

Do Russian believe that the West would invade and destroy or occupy Russia, if it werent for the threat of nuclear world destruction?


Exactly.

And we it has been proven that it would happen for sure.
Iraq didn't have WMD, and it was invade and occupied just because you don't like Saddam.
I don't want to say that Saddam is good, or I like him. But anyway it is not the reason to invade.
What do you think if Saddam had 100 ballistic missiles 20M each would the USA attack Iraq?
I think that from your point of view Stalin wasn't better than Saddam. What would stop your from attack the USSR if nothing stopped you from invade Iraq?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 06:41:14 AM by Vad »

Offline lazs2

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #283 on: December 21, 2005, 08:26:50 AM »
bluedog... socialism does not distribute equally that is correct... except... everyone is paying for a certain level of service that is distributed to anyone regardless of if they contribute or not...  the result is...   $6 a gallon gasoline and 6 month waits to see a dentist and a very high tax rate for everyone.   this is not "free".  

My point is that it is not free...  someone pays for it.    The only people who get "free" stuff are the ones who do nothing at all to contribute.   This is wrong.  I like the U.S. limited government that allows me to keep more of my money that I earn.   I wish it were more like it was supposed to be according to our constitution... things would be even better but... even so.. it is the best there is right now.

As for democracy... I am no fan of democracy.  Democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep all voting on what is for dinner.   I believe in either democracy or a representitive republic with a constitution that sevely limits governments powers and with all inallienable rights clearly called out.

If that happens then such a government can never turn to tyranny.   Any government that says that powers are derived from the government is doomed.   it matters not if the powers the government has/gets come from the people voting on em or from a tyrant or socialist leader.

if, there is no constitution that limits the power of government and calls out human rights that can not be infringed...  that government is doomed to tyranny induced by well meaning voters or iron fisted tyrants... it makes no difference.

The thing about this whole discussion is... we could never have had it back in "the good old days" of soviet Russia....  no North koreans are involved in this discussion.... no chinesse... no cubans.

Canadians and brits and aussies and russians and mexicans are all on here talking tho...  They can own a computer and talk to each other.   They don't have state radios tuned to 2 stations that never shut off or newspapers that are written by their government...  or...

Walls to keep them in.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #284 on: December 21, 2005, 08:30:18 AM »
and.... russian...

I will bite..  What do people in russia and/or former soviet russia do for hobbies?  

More specifically... what do they do for hobbies that I can't do right here in the U.S.  ?

lazs